What is the point of having a lavish academy then?

[thnhouse]

I did not understand why we signed Dagnall. The drop to League 2 seemed a perfect opportunity to give Saunders a decent run in the first team, not least to confirm whether or not he can make the grade. If not, release him. Udoh was thrown into the deep end last season and did well. Now he cannot get a game for the first team despite scoring goals regularly for the U23s. We are only scoring a goal per game and the Lowe/Dagnall combination is clearly not delivering.

As for the Academy, I supported it wholeheartedly for years, but these days it takes a disproportionate amount of funding from the Club to the detriment of the first team and seems to be very much the top priority despite any relegation to non-league meaning its end. Other teams manage without one or make do with a Category 3 academy. Why not Crewe? Times have changed and the once and mighty business model is no longer worth it. A root and branch overhaul of the Club is required, and difficult decisions have to be made. Whether the present Board is capable of doing more than deciding on Bourbon biscuits or Custard Creams for their meetings is an open question.

What would the actual saving be from downgrading from a Cat 2 to a Cat 3?
I understand that there are differences in terms of what facilities the club has to offer and the amount of coaches the club has to have, but what would the actual cost drop be?
What are the advantages of having a Cat 2 rather than a Cat 3?
From reading the EPPP it seems to suggest that the main advantage is that you compete against better youth teams and that it affects the amount of compensation we're due if a player gets poached. I'd also say that it's a major selling point to young players when choosing where to go.



Can we stop touting round the idea that the academy doesn't pay for itself , it clearly does? Add up player sales for the last 10 years, it comes to over 15 million. That is easily more than the academy has cost us and we're not counting the amount of money it saves us as the young players are on a third of the wages of an established pro.

What the concern is for me is that we have a manager that is destroying the development of our youngsters, since Davis started we've not had one young player establish himself and leave for money. This calls Davis into question not the academy.

[bigroof]

What would the actual saving be from downgrading from a Cat 2 to a Cat 3?
I understand that there are differences in terms of what facilities the club has to offer and the amount of coaches the club has to have, but what would the actual cost drop be?
What are the advantages of having a Cat 2 rather than a Cat 3?
From reading the EPPP it seems to suggest that the main advantage is that you compete against better youth teams and that it affects the amount of compensation we're due if a player gets poached. I'd also say that it's a major selling point to young players when choosing where to go.



Can we stop touting round the idea that the academy doesn't pay for itself , it clearly does? Add up player sales for the last 10 years, it comes to over 15 million. That is easily more than the academy has cost us and we're not counting the amount of money it saves us as the young players are on a third of the wages of an established pro.

What the concern is for me is that we have a manager that is destroying the development of our youngsters, since Davis started we've not had one young player establish himself and leave for money. This calls Davis into question not the academy.

The other difference is the coaching of boys from a younger age. It's not only Dario who would argue that this is important. The FA, in offering a greater subsidy to Category 2 Academies, than to lower categories, obviously feel that such a set-up is to be encouraged.

I doubt it's a simple matter to downgrade either. It's taken a long time to develop the facilities required; some key contracts will be in place. There's a lot of conjecture on the figures involved; on the face of it, the lower costs would suggest a big saving, but would a Category 3 Academy develop enough players to fill, say, half the places in the team?

Without having researched the matter thoroughly, I think there are only a few clubs of a similar size (crowd potential I mean), with a Category 3 Academy, who regularly develop sufficient players of their own to guarantee taking up to half of the first team places. It's usually the case, under Crewe's current set-up, that they will have up to half-a-dozen, sometimes more, home-produced players in the first team; that's part of the reason for running the Academy. In addition, historically at least, some of these players have been sold for decent fees, to help sustain the Academy, or improve it. Some people will complain that the sales don't directly benefit the first team. Another view would be that an improved Academy would indirectly improve the first team, over time. It is this latter view that is disputed - with good evidence of course: the team is in the bottom half of the fourth division!

So, what would a Crewe Alexandra with a downgraded Academy look like? Would the coaching staff required still be populated by ex-Crewe players, as it tends to be now? Would they still show the same loyalty to what would be a different kind of project? They wouldn't be required to run an under 23 squad - a mixed blessing? There would be a residue of coaching expertise left in the Academy; there would be fewer boys, and all those younger boys would be seeking other clubs of Category Two status.

The odds are that the first team manager would need to be looking at a greater number players from elsewhere to form his squad. What size of contracts could be afforded? Would the total of the new wage-bill equal the apparent savings from the lower academy costs? Or exceed them? The better the contracts, the more the chance of challenging for promotion, logically. Could the club afford that?

I believe, in reality, that the 'new' Crewe would still be careful/cautious with their finances. They would be trying to compete against similar-sized clubs, and some bigger ones, as now, for free transfer players, and for those players, maybe young ones, left adrift by Premiership and Championship clubs. Fees paid for players would be few and far between. They would be in much the same boat as they were in 1982. There would be the slight chance, of course, of attracting an ambitious, maverick type manager, who might, just might, bring short term success before moving on.

Some would argue that that would be preferable to running an Academy that they can't afford, in a season where the first team is still in the bottom division, and with no chance of a reprieve should they slip as far as 23rd or 24th by the final day. That is a perfectly valid view. The club would still survive as a National League club. There would still be games to go to.

My own view is that it would just be far less interesting, and offer less hope of greater things. The Academy is still producing good players, but, like thnhouse, I'm of the view that they're not being used or encouraged as well as they might, by the current manager, but that's a different matter.

[Timmy58]

What would the actual saving be from downgrading from a Cat 2 to a Cat 3?
I understand that there are differences in terms of what facilities the club has to offer and the amount of coaches the club has to have, but what would the actual cost drop be?
What are the advantages of having a Cat 2 rather than a Cat 3?
From reading the EPPP it seems to suggest that the main advantage is that you compete against better youth teams and that it affects the amount of compensation we're due if a player gets poached. I'd also say that it's a major selling point to young players when choosing where to go.



Can we stop touting round the idea that the academy doesn't pay for itself , it clearly does? Add up player sales for the last 10 years, it comes to over 15 million. That is easily more than the academy has cost us and we're not counting the amount of money it saves us as the young players are on a third of the wages of an established pro.

What the concern is for me is that we have a manager that is destroying the development of our youngsters, since Davis started we've not had one young player establish himself and leave for money. This calls Davis into question not the academy.

Like

[MikeSB]

Like

Like

Of course you like it as any post you like that doesn't rock the boat.

Have YOU had enough now or should we just continue on as we are? Or don't you think that 2 wins in 21 games is relegation form which in this case is NON league. How many times have fans say lets give x number of games and Bowler and other CA directors were at the Mansfield game today and so WTF do they talk about after every single game or is it really which brand of tea and biscuits they have? They may as well! Each time we expect an announcement from the board and yet nothing! Even the very loyal GM is asking why JB isn't coming on and telling fans what the plan is...

Just to add that SD has given academy graduates games. Has it ever occurred to anyone yet, that they may NOT be good enough for even L2 and the board SHOULD know how much each graduate has cost over the last ten or more years and yet unable to make the grade? Has it ever occurred to these non footballers that talent is really BORN and not made yet? And the proof is there for all to see. Kids that do make it would have done so irrespective of any coaching and you know why that is? Because they always did over the last 100 years when there wasn't any. We in fact won the World Cup without even ONE and we have been knocked out in the early rounds with scores and scores of them...I even was around to watch it live in 1966....Wow! What a day that was!

I wonder who taught Bobby Charlton to score goals from 30 yards and yet Dario almost made that a crime and George Best? Duncan Edwards who died in the Munich disaster played for England at age 17...I think even I may have made the grade training 3 times a week and a great gym to stay fit in...

You really don't need coaches and the ones that say so are on a bloody good salary and that won't change will it.

[Timmy58]

Of course you like it as any post you like that doesn't rock the boat.

Have YOU had enough now or should we just continue on as we are? Or don't you think that 2 wins in 21 games is relegation form which in this case is NON league. How many times have fans say lets give x number of games and Bowler and other CA directors were at the Mansfield game today and so WTF do they talk about after every single game or is it really which brand of tea and biscuits they have? They may as well! Each time we expect an announcement from the board and yet nothing! Even the very loyal GM is asking why JB isn't coming on and telling fans what the plan is...

Just to add that SD has given academy graduates games. Has it ever occurred to anyone yet, that they may NOT be good enough for even L2 and the board SHOULD know how much each graduate has cost over the last ten or more years and yet unable to make the grade? Has it ever occurred to these non footballers that talent is really BORN and not made yet? And the proof is there for all to see. Kids that do make it would have done so irrespective of any coaching and you know why that is? Because they always did over the last 100 years when there wasn't any. We in fact won the World Cup without even ONE and we have been knocked out in the early rounds with scores and scores of them...I even was around to watch it live in 1966....Wow! What a day that was!

I wonder who taught Bobby Charlton to score goals from 30 yards and yet Dario almost made that a crime and George Best? Duncan Edwards who died in the Munich disaster played for England at age 17...I think even I may have made the grade training 3 times a week and a great gym to stay fit in...

You really don't need coaches and the ones that say so are on a bloody good salary and that won't change will it.

If you read the post that drew a "Like" from me you will answer your own question. As for your constant carping about coaching being a waste of time, well that is ridiculous in just about every respect. Any player in any sport will benefit from coaching to maximise their natural ability!

[somersetcrewe]

And the proof is there for all to see. Kids that do make it would have done so irrespective of any coaching and you know why that is? Because they always did over the last 100 years when there wasn't any. We in fact won the World Cup without even ONE and we have been knocked out in the early rounds with scores and scores of them...

So I’m curious, why did Germany do a root-and-branch investigation of their entire structure after we beat them 5-1 in Berlin in 2000? Their whole strategy, from the ground up, was revamped – including coaching the youngsters!!
Didn’t do them any harm did it – current World Champions!!! First European nation to win outside of Europe.

So England won the World Cup without academies – so did Brazil, Italy, Uruguay and the like. But football moves on, times change and the whole approach to the game has been modernised – dieticians, psychologists, physios, all coaches in their own field as well as football coaches themselves. Said it before and I’ll say it again – raw talent alone is not enough. Look at how many England Schoolboys never make it to the pro ranks, even now.

And yes, we haven’t won the World Cup since ’66 – but Brazil, Italy, Germany, France and Argentina all have – and they all have youth policies, academies .............coaches!!
So it must work!

I even was around to watch it live in 1966....Wow! What a day that was!

I don’t doubt that for one second!!
The nearest I can get to that is Euro 96 or the Rugby World Cup in 2003 – and both of those certainly got the juices flowing!

[MikeSB]

So I’m curious, why did Germany do a root-and-branch investigation of their entire structure after we beat them 5-1 in Berlin in 2000? Their whole strategy, from the ground up, was revamped – including coaching the youngsters!!
Didn’t do them any harm did it – current World Champions!!! First European nation to win outside of Europe.

So England won the World Cup without academies – so did Brazil, Italy, Uruguay and the like. But football moves on, times change and the whole approach to the game has been modernised – dieticians, psychologists, physios, all coaches in their own field as well as football coaches themselves. Said it before and I’ll say it again – raw talent alone is not enough. Look at how many England Schoolboys never make it to the pro ranks, even now.

And yes, we haven’t won the World Cup since ’66 – but Brazil, Italy, Germany, France and Argentina all have – and they all have youth policies, academies .............coaches!!
So it must work!

I don’t doubt that for one second!!
The nearest I can get to that is Euro 96 or the Rugby World Cup in 2003 – and both of those certainly got the juices flowing!

yeh , banging me ed against a brick wall...

Millions of pounds going into academies all round the world now....But then I've always seen the Emperor naked..!

Not sure anyone read it a couple of days ago and I could find the link but some local lad that was working at Bentley here in Crewe was playing non league football and he has just been signed by Arsenal. Not been through the academy as far as I know but the plain fact is that coaching is a misnomer and why it confuses me...We have coaches here coming out of our ears and we had two on the touchline and NC being touted as one of the top coaches in the country and yet we couldn't beat the teams that don't have academies and play to crowds of 2000 and grounds falling apart?

Academies and Coaching is a recent well last 30 odd years thingy and nobody who works in them are going to condemn them even Dave Artell!

Maybe Jimmy Greaves was wrong and said they can destroy natural ability because they are teaching by numbers generally by people who have never played the game at a high level. When Spurs signed him way back he asked his manager how he wanted him to play and Bill Nicholson said "look lad we know what you can do and so do you, just go out and enjoy yourself"!

How many players seem to be 'enjoying' themselves today? How many academy players?

I'm not sure the game has moved on from an enjoyment spectacle or the players are more skillfull and yet they play on better pitches and have far better facilities than they ever did. Arguably they are fitter as result but that's about all. But I do wonder how many of the kids could play on the pitches of yesteryear with no grass full of mud and a heavy case ball and some of the football I saw was amazing...

I used to be a Spurs fan as well as a CAFC fan and went to see them when they played up here and the natural abilities of some of that team were phenomenal. One game where Greaves received the ball from midfield and had his back to the goal and he flicked the ball up over his head and over that of the defenders behind him and as the GK came out he slotted the ball past him..

There are as there always was thousands of kids who have natural ability and don't need 'coaching' at all. They just need somewhere to practice and play against some good opposition...and keep fit.

My ed is hurtin again!

[Furberstreet]

The Academy set up needs to be subject to a root and branch review. There is no harm in asking searching questions about its set up, the number of coaches, whether or not it is producing youngsters ready for League football or how is the money actually spent? I am not one of those advocating the abolition of the Academy, but its operation cannot simply go unchallenged year after year. This is something that happens across all aspects of life. I cannot believe that any conclusions would support its abolition, but there may be a need to re-focus in certain areas.

[somersetcrewe]

Not sure anyone read it a couple of days ago and I could find the link but some local lad that was working at Bentley here in Crewe was playing non league football and he has just been signed by Arsenal.

Yes, it was quite big news - but you're quoting exceptions. There will always be exceptions to rules.

I used to be a Spurs fan ..

Ah ha, now we're getting to the crux of your problem!

One game where Greaves received the ball from midfield and had his back to the goal and he flicked the ball up over his head and over that of the defenders behind him and as the GK came out he slotted the ball past him..

As I said above, you're quoting exceptions - but so can I.
Not many could do the move you describe by Jimmy Greaves.
Gazza could in '96 (although not sure of his youth background) but so could Dele Alli, and we all know what system he came from.

I acknowledge that you are not one of those calling for scrapping academies, although some are (itwasin), I also acknowledge that every system should be subject to review. But surely the large majority of people who run football, not just here but around the world, can't *all* be wrong?

My head hurts too!

[itwasin]

Yes, it was quite big news - but you're quoting exceptions. There will always be exceptions to rules.







Ah ha, now we're getting to the crux of your problem!






As I said above, you're quoting exceptions - but so can I.
Not many could do the move you describe by Jimmy Greaves.
Gazza could in '96 (although not sure of his youth background) but so could Dele Alli, and we all know what system he came from.

I acknowledge that you are not one of those calling for scrapping academies, although some are (itwasin), I also acknowledge that every system should be subject to review. But surely the large majority of people who run football, not just here but around the world, can't *all* be wrong?

My head hurts too!

I wonder if Somerset and others could give us a Clue! Who is going to sign the likes of Cooper,G.Ray,Kirk,H.Davis.Garret, just to mention a few who it feels as if they have been at the club for the past decade,and yet No Offers I wonder Why! Is it there not good Enough! Look at the past few years AJ been at club over 10 years ends up with Vale and now at Shrewsbury ,S.Miller at Carlisle this is going to be the trend as clubs in the Championship now want ready made players who perform week in not now and again.
The days when Crewe will get big fees is long over,how can a club like Crewe compete with the likes of Stoke and Manchester clubs Academys, Eyes wide open or Shut.