What is the point of having a lavish academy then?

[somersetcrewe]

And the proof is there for all to see. Kids that do make it would have done so irrespective of any coaching and you know why that is? Because they always did over the last 100 years when there wasn't any. We in fact won the World Cup without even ONE and we have been knocked out in the early rounds with scores and scores of them...

So I’m curious, why did Germany do a root-and-branch investigation of their entire structure after we beat them 5-1 in Berlin in 2000? Their whole strategy, from the ground up, was revamped – including coaching the youngsters!!
Didn’t do them any harm did it – current World Champions!!! First European nation to win outside of Europe.

So England won the World Cup without academies – so did Brazil, Italy, Uruguay and the like. But football moves on, times change and the whole approach to the game has been modernised – dieticians, psychologists, physios, all coaches in their own field as well as football coaches themselves. Said it before and I’ll say it again – raw talent alone is not enough. Look at how many England Schoolboys never make it to the pro ranks, even now.

And yes, we haven’t won the World Cup since ’66 – but Brazil, Italy, Germany, France and Argentina all have – and they all have youth policies, academies .............coaches!!
So it must work!

I even was around to watch it live in 1966....Wow! What a day that was!

I don’t doubt that for one second!!
The nearest I can get to that is Euro 96 or the Rugby World Cup in 2003 – and both of those certainly got the juices flowing!

[MikeSB]

So I’m curious, why did Germany do a root-and-branch investigation of their entire structure after we beat them 5-1 in Berlin in 2000? Their whole strategy, from the ground up, was revamped – including coaching the youngsters!!
Didn’t do them any harm did it – current World Champions!!! First European nation to win outside of Europe.

So England won the World Cup without academies – so did Brazil, Italy, Uruguay and the like. But football moves on, times change and the whole approach to the game has been modernised – dieticians, psychologists, physios, all coaches in their own field as well as football coaches themselves. Said it before and I’ll say it again – raw talent alone is not enough. Look at how many England Schoolboys never make it to the pro ranks, even now.

And yes, we haven’t won the World Cup since ’66 – but Brazil, Italy, Germany, France and Argentina all have – and they all have youth policies, academies .............coaches!!
So it must work!

I don’t doubt that for one second!!
The nearest I can get to that is Euro 96 or the Rugby World Cup in 2003 – and both of those certainly got the juices flowing!

yeh , banging me ed against a brick wall...

Millions of pounds going into academies all round the world now....But then I've always seen the Emperor naked..!

Not sure anyone read it a couple of days ago and I could find the link but some local lad that was working at Bentley here in Crewe was playing non league football and he has just been signed by Arsenal. Not been through the academy as far as I know but the plain fact is that coaching is a misnomer and why it confuses me...We have coaches here coming out of our ears and we had two on the touchline and NC being touted as one of the top coaches in the country and yet we couldn't beat the teams that don't have academies and play to crowds of 2000 and grounds falling apart?

Academies and Coaching is a recent well last 30 odd years thingy and nobody who works in them are going to condemn them even Dave Artell!

Maybe Jimmy Greaves was wrong and said they can destroy natural ability because they are teaching by numbers generally by people who have never played the game at a high level. When Spurs signed him way back he asked his manager how he wanted him to play and Bill Nicholson said "look lad we know what you can do and so do you, just go out and enjoy yourself"!

How many players seem to be 'enjoying' themselves today? How many academy players?

I'm not sure the game has moved on from an enjoyment spectacle or the players are more skillfull and yet they play on better pitches and have far better facilities than they ever did. Arguably they are fitter as result but that's about all. But I do wonder how many of the kids could play on the pitches of yesteryear with no grass full of mud and a heavy case ball and some of the football I saw was amazing...

I used to be a Spurs fan as well as a CAFC fan and went to see them when they played up here and the natural abilities of some of that team were phenomenal. One game where Greaves received the ball from midfield and had his back to the goal and he flicked the ball up over his head and over that of the defenders behind him and as the GK came out he slotted the ball past him..

There are as there always was thousands of kids who have natural ability and don't need 'coaching' at all. They just need somewhere to practice and play against some good opposition...and keep fit.

My ed is hurtin again!

[Furberstreet]

The Academy set up needs to be subject to a root and branch review. There is no harm in asking searching questions about its set up, the number of coaches, whether or not it is producing youngsters ready for League football or how is the money actually spent? I am not one of those advocating the abolition of the Academy, but its operation cannot simply go unchallenged year after year. This is something that happens across all aspects of life. I cannot believe that any conclusions would support its abolition, but there may be a need to re-focus in certain areas.

[somersetcrewe]

Not sure anyone read it a couple of days ago and I could find the link but some local lad that was working at Bentley here in Crewe was playing non league football and he has just been signed by Arsenal.

Yes, it was quite big news - but you're quoting exceptions. There will always be exceptions to rules.

I used to be a Spurs fan ..

Ah ha, now we're getting to the crux of your problem!

One game where Greaves received the ball from midfield and had his back to the goal and he flicked the ball up over his head and over that of the defenders behind him and as the GK came out he slotted the ball past him..

As I said above, you're quoting exceptions - but so can I.
Not many could do the move you describe by Jimmy Greaves.
Gazza could in '96 (although not sure of his youth background) but so could Dele Alli, and we all know what system he came from.

I acknowledge that you are not one of those calling for scrapping academies, although some are (itwasin), I also acknowledge that every system should be subject to review. But surely the large majority of people who run football, not just here but around the world, can't *all* be wrong?

My head hurts too!

[itwasin]

Yes, it was quite big news - but you're quoting exceptions. There will always be exceptions to rules.







Ah ha, now we're getting to the crux of your problem!






As I said above, you're quoting exceptions - but so can I.
Not many could do the move you describe by Jimmy Greaves.
Gazza could in '96 (although not sure of his youth background) but so could Dele Alli, and we all know what system he came from.

I acknowledge that you are not one of those calling for scrapping academies, although some are (itwasin), I also acknowledge that every system should be subject to review. But surely the large majority of people who run football, not just here but around the world, can't *all* be wrong?

My head hurts too!

I wonder if Somerset and others could give us a Clue! Who is going to sign the likes of Cooper,G.Ray,Kirk,H.Davis.Garret, just to mention a few who it feels as if they have been at the club for the past decade,and yet No Offers I wonder Why! Is it there not good Enough! Look at the past few years AJ been at club over 10 years ends up with Vale and now at Shrewsbury ,S.Miller at Carlisle this is going to be the trend as clubs in the Championship now want ready made players who perform week in not now and again.
The days when Crewe will get big fees is long over,how can a club like Crewe compete with the likes of Stoke and Manchester clubs Academys, Eyes wide open or Shut.

[out0lunch]

I think DA gives some good reasons here

http://www.crewealex.net/news/articl...s-3514711.aspx

[itwasin]

I think DA gives some good reasons here

http://www.crewealex.net/news/articl...s-3514711.aspx

Developing a first Team Squad he says I see ! One that can not beat Eastleigh Accrington, Lincoln,Morecambe, working well then !.He would say that would he not,wait till the results come in Davis learned the hard way.

[MikeSB]

I think DA gives some good reasons here

http://www.crewealex.net/news/articl...s-3514711.aspx

Yes, wise man who knows which side his bread is buttered...

We need to be careful about people arguing, even DA saying we have some players who could be good enough for L2 and maybe, maybe L1 at a push BUT that is not the reason we have a Cat2 academy, costing over a million pound per annum. Its to produce million pound players that could go into the PL or Championship and recover the costs of that level of academy. If we don't get that, then the academy will be downgraded. Its cost us 3m in the last four seasons with not much coming back and so unless someone is putting in some serious cash, then what is the alternative?

But nobody,not even Derek/Lowroof is it? has been able to offer a counter argument as why working parents just would not have the time to take their kids that much further from home than they do now and providing there is a decent level of academy and Cat3 is decent then that is what they will continue to do. There well could be exceptions and Somerset uses that word advisedly... But do we know of any parents doing that and taking them to Stoke, Manchester or Liverpool. I'm interested in this question and if they are then maybe someone can tell us the numbers?

I know one friend who's lad is currently at the academy and he says its one hell of an inconvenience for him and his wife and he wouldn't do it to go further afield.

But please...Dario didn't have an super dupa academy did he and we did fine and kids came through and then some bright spark said if we could treat it like a conveyor belt then the more kids we can attract, the more money we will make and the more coaches we can employ and then double the academy size and ditto...ditto..

A cat3 level is pretty decent...and we should do it without compromising the ethos of the club...imo and my headache is much better!

[bigroof]

Yes, wise man who knows which side his bread is buttered...

We need to be careful about people arguing, even DA saying we have some players who could be good enough for L2 and maybe, maybe L1 at a push BUT that is not the reason we have a Cat2 academy, costing over a million pound per annum. Its to produce million pound players that could go into the PL or Championship and recover the costs of that level of academy. If we don't get that, then the academy will be downgraded. Its cost us 3m in the last four seasons with not much coming back and so unless someone is putting in some serious cash, then what is the alternative?

But nobody,not even Derek/Lowroof is it? has been able to offer a counter argument as why working parents just would not have the time to take their kids that much further from home than they do now and providing there is a decent level of academy and Cat3 is decent then that is what they will continue to do. There well could be exceptions and Somerset uses that word advisedly... But do we know of any parents doing that and taking them to Stoke, Manchester or Liverpool. I'm interested in this question and if they are then maybe someone can tell us the numbers?

I know one friend who's lad is currently at the academy and he says its one hell of an inconvenience for him and his wife and he wouldn't do it to go further afield.

But please...Dario didn't have an super dupa academy did he and we did fine and kids came through and then some bright spark said if we could treat it like a conveyor belt then the more kids we can attract, the more money we will make and the more coaches we can employ and then double the academy size and ditto...ditto..

A cat3 level is pretty decent...and we should do it without compromising the ethos of the club...imo and my headache is much better!

Regarding parents bringing their boys to Reaseheath, the fact is that they do, whether some feel it to be an 'inconvenience' or not. If it were a Category 3 Academy, then it would only be for those 12 and upwards. Presumably there'd be some advanced notice of such a downgrading, so each family could decide whether or not to wait until their boy was 12, or hope that another Category 2 Academy would take the lad on - the nearest such is at Bolton Wanderers (but then again that might even be nearer for some families!)

You seem pretty sure, Mike, that a Category 3 Academy would suit the club's needs. It's true that Crewe haven't sold a player for £1m since 2013 (Murphy), but very few players have been sold for such money from clubs operating at Category 3, since the categories were introduced. It's possible, I grant you that.

Conventional wisdom has it that you have more chance of developing players whose attributes appeal to bigger clubs if you begin coaching them earlier. The FA believe that; that's why they offer a greater subsidy to clubs who are prepared to operate at Category Two, with its starting age of 8/9. Dario would argue that also, which is why, despite earlier success, within a different landscape, in producing saleable assets.

The club have spent a great deal of time and money over years, jumping through hoops and building up Reaseheath. I doubt that they're about to abandon the project at this point. You may sneer a little at Dave Artell's statement ("knowing which side his bread is buttered"), but he has had a couple of years at the heart of the economics of Reaseheath. I believe he has had the brief of trying to make economies; he may even have been successful enough - who knows? - to reduce the overall annual costs to the club.

Artell's point is one that a number of us have been trying to make on this board for a while: it's cheaper to populate the first team squad (by producing so many of its own players) than it would be operating by a lower category academy. That is simply because Category 3 is less likely to produce even four or five regular first team players of sufficient quality for the lower divisions of the league. Such other clubs focus on finding players for their team, at a higher wage than most of our youngsters, and - at best - hoping to supplement their squad with some of their own products. At Crewe it's the other way round: populate the team with our best youngsters, and find players from outside to complete the line-up, hoping they'll fill the gaps in the production line, and help improve the youngsters at the same time.

Of course, some clubs occasionally do very well with the Category 3 model; most of our size though, don't do any better than Crewe, and a number do worse and are out of the league. Be careful what you wish for, Mike.

For Crewe's model to work though, they have to sell. For all the talk of populating the team, that's still the aim, and the need. Since Murphy's sale, there has been a reported £300k for Clayton, but sadly, due to his injuries, no further cash for his appearances - some might yet trickle through now though, if he can belatedly succeed at Bolton. The club had a windfall of around £500k from the sell-on of Grant Hanley from Blackburn to Newcastle.

Of course this isn't enough. Apart from whether or not Artell, Lunt and the players can lift the team up the table, the other question is whether or not - amidst such anticipated success - our brighter young talents can show themselves to be worth more than they perhaps currently show. This is the nub of the matter. Davis gave a lot of young players a debut, but he never convinced me, nor others I suspect, that his heart was really in the Crewe Alexandra project, and didn't seem to be able to help young players thrive, and really show what they can do.

Can Dave and Kenny, with Baker's back-up, help the best youngsters show their best? If they can, then it's 'game on' again. Exeter sold a player for over a million about 18 months ago; it's possible then, for League Two clubs to ask for that sort of money; there is still a market for lower division clubs to sell to higher, despite the top divisions' keenness on ready-made foreign products .

A bit of confidence can work wonders, and that's what we must hope for now.