O/T Tommy Robinson Speaks About Manchester Terror Attack

[harpo88]

I think the closest thing Ellis to what you're proposing is Guantanamo Bay. I don't think we can say that's helped. But we can't really know. Or perhaps the crackdown in the Philippines now under Duterte - will have to see how that pans out.

The other thing with a policy decision is it's also about how things are perceived. The way people think about a policy can be far more important than the details of the policy itself, and that needs to be carefully considered, if there is a possibility of doing more harm than good. Not saying that conclusively, but it might be why they haven't done what seems to be 'common sense'.

[millmoormagic]

Well, no, actually, millmoor, you can't try to twist this as you usually do, because it's there in black and white what I said:

"This scumbag was known as a potential terrorist. EVERY single person on this list should be rounded up, and either jailed indefinitely or deported, simple. B0llocks to their human rights. What about the human rights of all the people who died? What about the human rights of every innocent, decent man, woman and child in this country who deserves to live a free, safe life. I would actually string them up, never mind lock them up, but locking them up or deporting them will be a start."

It's clear to anyone that from that post - and my earlier and later posts - that I believe we as a country should be locking them up or deporting them, but that I said I would actually string them up. With the obvious connotation if I were in charge of the country.

And no, I don't believe that is what is already happening. These people aren't on this list because they look a bit foreign or they have grown a beard, I know that doesn't suit YOUR narrative, but that's the truth.

Just four thousand out of three million Muslims are being monitored as potential terrorists. It's quite a small percentage, and for that reason, I'd say they aren't just monitoring people willy nilly. However, because of the Human Rights Act, and the fact people like you would scream and shout about abuses of their human rights, we are powerless to act, until we have concrete evidence. Which usually comes in the form of a terror attack. And that is too late. And that is why people want preventative measures, even if that does mean some of those 4,000 people might be innocent. Although bearing in mind 50,000 Muslims in Britain alone downloaded the ISIS terrorist handbook explaining to them how to make bombs and kill and maim as many as possible, I would suggest that 4,000 being under suspicion is far too low a figure.

What I am suggesting, and if you'd like to put it to a referendum, like your little Brexit poll that the arrogant leftists were so sure they would win, I guarantee WELL over half the country would support deporting or indefinitely imprisoning all 4,000 people on this list until we can prove they were never going to be involved in Islamic terrorism or recruiting people to be involved in Islamic extremism, or until the Islamic terrorism across the world largely comes to a halt, whichever comes first.

Millmoor, you are clearly in the naive belief that you are right, but you thought the same about Brexit and Trump. The majority of people on here believe it's actions not words that are needed, the majority side with me, just as the majority of the country would.

I know that doesn't suit your narrative, I know it hurts to think you are in the minority with your views, but that's the truth of the matter.

I don't need to twist anything fella, you're doing just fine on yourself...

"*******s to the human rights" = going against everything this country has stood up and fought for, for thousands of people who've lost their lives fighting for those human rights against all comers, hitler included, i wonder how much'concrete evidence' Adolph needed...

As for those on the list, those you'd willingly kill by the way, yep, they're on the list for a reason, and the fact they're on a list suggests that our security forces have some kind of control on the matter, they've done a great job upto yet, aided no doubt by members of the muslim community, but you can ignore that can't you...

Your arguments are straight out of the playground, you really do need to take a broader outlook because the only naive bloke here is you and your cohorts...

[monty_rhodes]

This old lie. If all western troops pulled out of Muslim lands, that would NOT suddenly stop the terrorism. There is Islamic extremism and terrorism in numerous countries across the globe who don't have troops stationed in Muslim lands. It's all a lie, and yet another excuse that the apologists LOVE to trot out in defence of them. ISIS don't just want British troops out of the Middle East, they want world domination.

Ellis, you misunderstand my point. The point of the spokesman's intervention was that Muslim condemnation of the Manchester atrocity is CONDITIONAL. He admits that disapproval of UK foreign policy is widely held by Muslims and that he and other Muslims in the UK see the attack as an INEVITABLE response to those policies. He made the quite appalling suggestion that such attacks might have the benefit of forcing the British people (interestingly he sees these as separate from British Muslims) to demand a more "moral" (ie pro-Muslim) foreign policy.
As for Kempo, strange how to every argument he has personal experience: how convenient he's just been treated by a Muslim doctor and dentist who were both great blokes. I have a doctor and a dentist and have no idea of their religious affiliations. If I did I would no idea of their views on UK foreign policy, homo***uality and a host of other issues. Kempo is simply a fabricator and you should trust nothing he says. Nothing.

[rolymiller]

My own view is that there needs to be more integration not less between Muslims and ourselves. Neil davitt quotes the taxi drivers doctors and nurses who helped. Surely more integration means that there is more trust and more intelligence can be gathered. Polarising people is not the way forward. In the end we are all humans on one planet spaceship earth. If we can't work together to solve problems we will end up making our species extinct. We also pretend we are civilised animals it is supposedly what makes us different to other animals . Let's ALL begin to act like we are.

[rolymiller]

Neil davitt excellent post and kempo some good points ellis I understand that you are angry about the bombings and rightly so but you need to calm down a bit before you post on here. I am not wanting to get in to a slanging match with you by the way. Also to champion an obvious football hooligan like Tommy Robinsons views doesn't lend credence to your arguments. Please don't shout at me I come in peace for ALL.

[monty_rhodes]

roly, I agree with you regarding Robinson's views. However, your ideas of "all we need is love" is frankly wishful tosh and you are intelligent enough to know it. In the end these arguments get us nowhere. For every Muslim taxi driver who offered free rides I can find examples of their much less savoury behaviour. I know from personal experience that UK mainstream Muslim attitudes towards atrocities is equivocal. They have actually - and by "they" I mean educated younger people in the main - stated to me that the killings are terrible BUT at the end of the day they are a response to UK government policies on Israel, Iraq, Libya, homo***uality, press freedom (none will unconditionally condemn the fatwah on Rushdie or the attacks on cartoonists) and other issues which are "provocations" to moderate Muslims.
As to integration I'm afraid you have this very wrong. I know from years in the ANL that it is largely Muslim community leaders who oppose integration because they fear a dilution of their control.

[Yak]

I don't normally agree with Monty but I have to say he's responded with well thought out and educated points of view on this.
No bitterness just reasoned points of view put across.

[millmoormagic]

As to integration I'm afraid you have this very wrong. I know from years in the ANL that it is largely Muslim community leaders who oppose integration because they fear a dilution of their control.

The truth of it, really is this, just like most religions, they're a method of control and vary in terms of how much control they have over their 'flock'. The other truth is that their control over modern British muslims is waning and they know it.

[great_fire]

1400 girls abused in Rotherham and not 1 Muslim said a thing, zero, Islam is all about "us and them".

[ragingpup]

Some good posts with some good ideas on here. Especially the splendidly named Neville Davitt with a far more eloquent summation of what we all should NOT do. Please everybody, read his post carefully.

I posted yesterday a few points from my own experience of living in East London and having local schools that take and function very well with a very mixed cultural population including Muslims. We have close friends of some of these kid's parents and three of these are committed Muslims, not old school and all of them are perfectly happy that their kids, and we parents mix and share our cultures. It's no ideal were living, its just what you do in a multi cultural community. For the kids, there are no barriers, the schools encourage celebration of all the community's religions and just get on with the education.

So for me, I can see the results of a mixed community that has already progressed down the road into multi racial cohesion. And I have obvious comparative experience of my upbringing and family and friends in Rotherham. Like many areas there is still a separation between the communities and despite efforts from the local council the communities remain entrenched. Trevor MacDonald's documentary "What Muslim's Really Think" caused a lot of controversy when it was aired from people who didn't agree with the programme research data that found that especially the elders of the Muslim community were against integration and were very protective of their culture and customs including what I consider to be negative ones on individual liberty. However, he also found that there was a stark contrast between the views of the community elders and the younger people who were found to be much more willing to integrate into the wider culture and rejected many of the beliefs of the elders. I think that it is essential to focus NOW on improving integration programmes in our communities so that these 'boundaries' are blurred and eventually overcome by the younger generations.

MacDonald's documentary also showed the work of this school in Oldham that has striven to create a school community deliberately from the two very segregated White and Pakistani communities.

https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/m...david-goodhart

This is still in early days but studies seem to indicate that the school community is prospering, its an Ofsted Good school and there are unusually low levels of racially based bullying. From my own kid's point of view, this multi racial community is just the way the world is to her. There simply is no issue of different cultures holding mysterious beliefs and custom. It's not perfect but what I'm getting at is that I am seeing the end result of what this school in Oldham is striving for, and it works. Kids just adapt and take on board what they see, be it from a school that places them shoulder to shoulder with mixed race schoolmates and encourages exploration and tolerance of differences, or from a cultural leader or parent that feels that their way of life is superior to others and does not want the two to mix.

So what to do? Practical initiatives I'd like to see are a strong government agenda to move away from segregated to mixed schools and for councils in areas where there are entrenched cultures to be empowered to create good schools and direct their populations to come from even representations of these different cultures. For me, it should not be optional, parents should not have the option of shielding their kids away from a diverse society that their kids have to eventually move into. Most certainly we should not allow public funds to help create faith schools of any kind that effectively cut children off from their world.

I know that this is not an immediate solution that people are looking for, that would 'feel' like it provides justice for the dreadful, inexcusable atrocities that these lunatics do but it is something that we could do now.