O/T Tommy Robinson Speaks About Manchester Terror Attack

[ragingpup]

Some good posts with some good ideas on here. Especially the splendidly named Neville Davitt with a far more eloquent summation of what we all should NOT do. Please everybody, read his post carefully.

I posted yesterday a few points from my own experience of living in East London and having local schools that take and function very well with a very mixed cultural population including Muslims. We have close friends of some of these kid's parents and three of these are committed Muslims, not old school and all of them are perfectly happy that their kids, and we parents mix and share our cultures. It's no ideal were living, its just what you do in a multi cultural community. For the kids, there are no barriers, the schools encourage celebration of all the community's religions and just get on with the education.

So for me, I can see the results of a mixed community that has already progressed down the road into multi racial cohesion. And I have obvious comparative experience of my upbringing and family and friends in Rotherham. Like many areas there is still a separation between the communities and despite efforts from the local council the communities remain entrenched. Trevor MacDonald's documentary "What Muslim's Really Think" caused a lot of controversy when it was aired from people who didn't agree with the programme research data that found that especially the elders of the Muslim community were against integration and were very protective of their culture and customs including what I consider to be negative ones on individual liberty. However, he also found that there was a stark contrast between the views of the community elders and the younger people who were found to be much more willing to integrate into the wider culture and rejected many of the beliefs of the elders. I think that it is essential to focus NOW on improving integration programmes in our communities so that these 'boundaries' are blurred and eventually overcome by the younger generations.

MacDonald's documentary also showed the work of this school in Oldham that has striven to create a school community deliberately from the two very segregated White and Pakistani communities.

https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/m...david-goodhart

This is still in early days but studies seem to indicate that the school community is prospering, its an Ofsted Good school and there are unusually low levels of racially based bullying. From my own kid's point of view, this multi racial community is just the way the world is to her. There simply is no issue of different cultures holding mysterious beliefs and custom. It's not perfect but what I'm getting at is that I am seeing the end result of what this school in Oldham is striving for, and it works. Kids just adapt and take on board what they see, be it from a school that places them shoulder to shoulder with mixed race schoolmates and encourages exploration and tolerance of differences, or from a cultural leader or parent that feels that their way of life is superior to others and does not want the two to mix.

So what to do? Practical initiatives I'd like to see are a strong government agenda to move away from segregated to mixed schools and for councils in areas where there are entrenched cultures to be empowered to create good schools and direct their populations to come from even representations of these different cultures. For me, it should not be optional, parents should not have the option of shielding their kids away from a diverse society that their kids have to eventually move into. Most certainly we should not allow public funds to help create faith schools of any kind that effectively cut children off from their world.

I know that this is not an immediate solution that people are looking for, that would 'feel' like it provides justice for the dreadful, inexcusable atrocities that these lunatics do but it is something that we could do now.

[millmoormagic]

Some good posts with some good ideas on here. Especially the splendidly named Neville Davitt with a far more eloquent summation of what we all should NOT do. Please everybody, read his post carefully.

I posted yesterday a few points from my own experience of living in East London and having local schools that take and function very well with a very mixed cultural population including Muslims. We have close friends of some of these kid's parents and three of these are committed Muslims, not old school and all of them are perfectly happy that their kids, and we parents mix and share our cultures. It's no ideal were living, its just what you do in a multi cultural community. For the kids, there are no barriers, the schools encourage celebration of all the community's religions and just get on with the education.

So for me, I can see the results of a mixed community that has already progressed down the road into multi racial cohesion. And I have obvious comparative experience of my upbringing and family and friends in Rotherham. Like many areas there is still a separation between the communities and despite efforts from the local council the communities remain entrenched. Trevor MacDonald's documentary "What Muslim's Really Think" caused a lot of controversy when it was aired from people who didn't agree with the programme research data that found that especially the elders of the Muslim community were against integration and were very protective of their culture and customs including what I consider to be negative ones on individual liberty. However, he also found that there was a stark contrast between the views of the community elders and the younger people who were found to be much more willing to integrate into the wider culture and rejected many of the beliefs of the elders. I think that it is essential to focus NOW on improving integration programmes in our communities so that these 'boundaries' are blurred and eventually overcome by the younger generations.

MacDonald's documentary also showed the work of this school in Oldham that has striven to create a school community deliberately from the two very segregated White and Pakistani communities.

https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/m...david-goodhart

This is still in early days but studies seem to indicate that the school community is prospering, its an Ofsted Good school and there are unusually low levels of racially based bullying. From my own kid's point of view, this multi racial community is just the way the world is to her. There simply is no issue of different cultures holding mysterious beliefs and custom. It's not perfect but what I'm getting at is that I am seeing the end result of what this school in Oldham is striving for, and it works. Kids just adapt and take on board what they see, be it from a school that places them shoulder to shoulder with mixed race schoolmates and encourages exploration and tolerance of differences, or from a cultural leader or parent that feels that their way of life is superior to others and does not want the two to mix.

So what to do? Practical initiatives I'd like to see are a strong government agenda to move away from segregated to mixed schools and for councils in areas where there are entrenched cultures to be empowered to create good schools and direct their populations to come from even representations of these different cultures. For me, it should not be optional, parents should not have the option of shielding their kids away from a diverse society that their kids have to eventually move into. Most certainly we should not allow public funds to help create faith schools of any kind that effectively cut children off from their world.

I know that this is not an immediate solution that people are looking for, that would 'feel' like it provides justice for the dreadful, inexcusable atrocities that these lunatics do but it is something that we could do now.

Great post fella.

[Grist_To_The_Mill]

Ofsted report for that school

Personal development, behaviour and welfare - requires improvement
Outcomes for pupils- requires improvement
Quality of teaching - requires improvement
Overall effectiveness- inadequate

The kids suffering again in a failed social experiment of forced integration

[great_fire]

Multiculturalism might work but not with Islam, Islam is about conquest not co-existence.

[ragingpup]

Ofsted report for that school

Personal development, behaviour and welfare - requires improvement
Outcomes for pupils- requires improvement
Quality of teaching - requires improvement
Overall effectiveness- inadequate

The kids suffering again in a failed social experiment of forced integration

Grist,

I see that you carefully edited the last point on "Overall Effectiveness at the last Inspection......Inadequate" in "Overall Effectiveness......Inadequate". Why would you do that? My observations are trying to make suggestions for a positive way forward, to find solutions. I've no problem with people finding constructive criticisms of my thoughts but that editing looks a bit sinister.

Reading up on the latest Ofsted report just finds that the quality systems are at fault, that the school haven't put in good quality checks on teaching and systems used and that the current head received GOOD for leadership and management and ofsted acknowledge that the head is instigated quality systems that they expect will result in good outcomes in all areas. I've been a teacher for 20 years and am a senior leader, I know enough to know that the problems ofsted identified are nothing to do with the kids there and point out that "Pupils’ spiritual, moral, social and cultural development is promoted effectively", "Pupils’ conduct in and around the school is orderly, polite and respectful. Pupils feel safe at school" and "At the time of this inspection pupils were very engaged in a mock European Union referendum to support their understanding of democratic values in modern Britain. Year 10 pupils have also attended challenging workshops to secure their understanding of the risks of extremism".

Look around Rotherham, London, everywhere, you will find schools that "require improvement" - are they all "failed social experiments of forced integration"?

I find that your statement, closely followed by Mr Great Fire who says "Multiculturalism might work but not with Islam, Islam is about conquest not co-existence" really worrying. "Islam is about conquest not co-existence" No it isn't! Have you ever spoke to any Muslims about Islam? As I've said, some are my colleagues and friends, and my daughter is going to school everyday with children being raised as practicing Muslims; they and their parents engage with their school communities in just the same way as we do, and several will be attending my kids upcoming birthday party in a couple of weeks. In what way are these Muslims wanting conquest? The birthday cake?

I despair that educated people like yourselves can take an observation/idea/thought and somehow manage to twist it into "kids suffering again in failed social experiment" and particularly "Islam is about conquest not co-existence" simply as it seems to indicate a hostility to the very idea that we might all, different cultures, get along with each other. It indicates that this aim is something that you are not even willing to work towards. Is that how you really feel?

[Grist_To_The_Mill]

Grist,

I see that you carefully edited the last point on "Overall Effectiveness at the last Inspection......Inadequate" in "Overall Effectiveness......Inadequate". Why would you do that? My observations are trying to make suggestions for a positive way forward, to find solutions. I've no problem with people finding constructive criticisms of my thoughts but that editing looks a bit sinister.

Reading up on the latest Ofsted report just finds that the quality systems are at fault, that the school haven't put in good quality checks on teaching and systems used and that the current head received GOOD for leadership and management and ofsted acknowledge that the head is instigated quality systems that they expect will result in good outcomes in all areas. I've been a teacher for 20 years and am a senior leader, I know enough to know that the problems ofsted identified are nothing to do with the kids there and point out that "Pupils’ spiritual, moral, social and cultural development is promoted effectively", "Pupils’ conduct in and around the school is orderly, polite and respectful. Pupils feel safe at school" and "At the time of this inspection pupils were very engaged in a mock European Union referendum to support their understanding of democratic values in modern Britain. Year 10 pupils have also attended challenging workshops to secure their understanding of the risks of extremism".

Look around Rotherham, London, everywhere, you will find schools that "require improvement" - are they all "failed social experiments of forced integration"?

I find that your statement, closely followed by Mr Great Fire who says "Multiculturalism might work but not with Islam, Islam is about conquest not co-existence" really worrying. "Islam is about conquest not co-existence" No it isn't! Have you ever spoke to any Muslims about Islam? As I've said, some are my colleagues and friends, and my daughter is going to school everyday with children being raised as practicing Muslims; they and their parents engage with their school communities in just the same way as we do, and several will be attending my kids upcoming birthday party in a couple of weeks. In what way are these Muslims wanting conquest? The birthday cake?

I despair that educated people like yourselves can take an observation/idea/thought and somehow manage to twist it into "kids suffering again in failed social experiment" and particularly "Islam is about conquest not co-existence" simply as it seems to indicate a hostility to the very idea that we might all, different cultures, get along with each other. It indicates that this aim is something that you are not even willing to work towards. Is that how you really feel?

It was only reduced by me to make it readable, I'm not a fan of the verbal diarrhoea that some knock out.

I did however leave out the bit that the school in question was at one time on Ofsted "special measures"

It's a politically correct attempt at forced integration and is dramatically failing those poor souls that have to go there.

[ragingpup]

It was only reduced by me to make it readable, I'm not a fan of the verbal diarrhoea that some knock out.

I did however leave out the bit that the school in question was at one time on Ofsted "special measures"

It's a politically correct attempt at forced integration and is dramatically failing those poor souls that have to go there.

I think its fair to see that the school has been on a fair old journey, but as the ofsted report clearly says, the previous headmaster and the lack of teaching skills was the problem. It's exactly the same report as the college I recently started work; underskilled teachers who needed support and some lazy ones who needed shipping out. We moved from a 3 to a 2 in 12 months. The current head of this school will do the same, as Ofsted indicate in their report. When she gets that, can we then, with equal idiocy, call the 'experiment' a success?

If Ofsted is the barometer of multi cultural school success, how about my two nearest local schools? My daughter goes to Oakdale School, South Woodford with this ofsted profile: "The proportion of pupils from minority ethnic groups is above the national average. The largest single group of pupils is of White British heritage, with other sizeable groups having Other White, Pakistani, African, Caribbean or Mixed heritages. The proportion of pupils speaking English as an additional language is also above the national average".
Ofsted Grade: Good

Or our other local one has "The proportion of pupils from minority ethnic groups is much higher than average and has increased rapidly in the last three years. Tthe percentage of children with English as an additional language is also above average and is increasing"
Ofsted grade: Outstanding. http://www.nightingale.redbridge.sch...ruary_2010.pdf

So how do these schools which do naturally what the Oldham school are attempting to do manage to deliver excellent education to students from mixed cultures??


So it seems that my ideas for moving away from faith schools and allowing parents to keep their cultures separate is worth at least engaging with. If you do not feel it would work, or isn't a good idea to move in this direction, then please at least give a coherent reason as it looks, from out here, that you simply don't want to go in this direction. If that's the case, why not?


And can I ask you, and Mr Fire, or anyone that has contributed to this thread as they share an interest in moving towards a world where people don't feel the need to carry out atrocities justified by religious bigotry, if you had a school such as either of the two ofsted have profiled above with much higher than average ethnic diversity but outstanding/good standards - would you send your children there??

If not, why?

[Ellis_D]

I think its fair to see that the school has been on a fair old journey, but as the ofsted report clearly says, the previous headmaster and the lack of teaching skills was the problem. It's exactly the same report as the college I recently started work; underskilled teachers who needed support and some lazy ones who needed shipping out. We moved from a 3 to a 2 in 12 months. The current head of this school will do the same, as Ofsted indicate in their report. When she gets that, can we then, with equal idiocy, call the 'experiment' a success?

If Ofsted is the barometer of multi cultural school success, how about my two nearest local schools? My daughter goes to Oakdale School, South Woodford with this ofsted profile: "The proportion of pupils from minority ethnic groups is above the national average. The largest single group of pupils is of White British heritage, with other sizeable groups having Other White, Pakistani, African, Caribbean or Mixed heritages. The proportion of pupils speaking English as an additional language is also above the national average".
Ofsted Grade: Good

Or our other local one has "The proportion of pupils from minority ethnic groups is much higher than average and has increased rapidly in the last three years. Tthe percentage of children with English as an additional language is also above average and is increasing"
Ofsted grade: Outstanding. http://www.nightingale.redbridge.sch...ruary_2010.pdf

So how do these schools which do naturally what the Oldham school are attempting to do manage to deliver excellent education to students from mixed cultures??


So it seems that my ideas for moving away from faith schools and allowing parents to keep their cultures separate is worth at least engaging with. If you do not feel it would work, or isn't a good idea to move in this direction, then please at least give a coherent reason as it looks, from out here, that you simply don't want to go in this direction. If that's the case, why not?


And can I ask you, and Mr Fire, or anyone that has contributed to this thread as they share an interest in moving towards a world where people don't feel the need to carry out atrocities justified by religious bigotry, if you had a school such as either of the two ofsted have profiled above with much higher than average ethnic diversity but outstanding/good standards - would you send your children there??

If not, why?

I will answer your question. I choose the schools for my children purely on their Ofsted report and reputation. I wouldn't care how ethnically diverse they were or weren't, all I have EVER cared about is that my children get the best education available to them as possible.

[great_fire]

I find that your statement, closely followed by Mr Great Fire who says "Multiculturalism might work but not with Islam, Islam is about conquest not co-existence" really worrying. "Islam is about conquest not co-existence" No it isn't! Have you ever spoke to any Muslims about Islam? As I've said, some are my colleagues and friends, and my daughter is going to school everyday with children being raised as practicing Muslims; they and their parents engage with their school communities in just the same way as we do, and several will be attending my kids upcoming birthday party in a couple of weeks. In what way are these Muslims wanting conquest? The birthday cake?

Doesn't sound like any school I know about, from what I've seen Muslim mothers always keep to themselves at school gates and don't talk to non-Muslims and in most cases won't let their children play with non-Muslims, or let non-Muslim children come to their houses to play with their kids. They think their children will be corrupted by our evil Western ways which is quite ironic.

[millmoormagic]

Doesn't sound like any school I know about, from what I've seen Muslim mothers always keep to themselves at school gates and don't talk to non-Muslims and in most cases won't let their children play with non-Muslims, or let non-Muslim children come to their houses to play with their kids. They think their children will be corrupted by our evil Western ways which is quite ironic.

Ellis, can you have a word with this clown because he doesn't do your cause any good with the shyte he posts...