O/T Tommy Robinson Speaks About Manchester Terror Attack

[Ellis_D]

Completely agree with this. As I've said before, and Piers says in the interview, Tommy has some good points and could use his experience as part of a holistic approach to redusing and ending the problem.

But calling the problem "Islam" as you say is a huge backwards step and plays right into Isis's dirty hands. He says EXACTLY what they would want an influential indigenous person to say. All my workmates and friends, all peaceful, law abiding (can't believe I have to even say this knowing them as well as I do!) people who have integrated into our society. But they believe in Islam. Just as Christians do, although it is fair to say that we have amended most of the gory details in transition from old to new testaments. But an extremist won't be interested in a 'new' version of their faith. They are...extremists, far removed from thought that is rational. My Muslim friends, as well as the vast majority of the faith are able to take their own more positive, peaceful and loving parts of their sacred text and live their lives accordingly. Somebody waving their 'holy text' around saying "this is the problem", "this must be banned", "the problem is with Islam" can only serve to alienate peace loving Muslims and push the more susceptible ones further into the arms of Isis.

Surely, our movement should be focused on terrorists, people who use this text as a reason or excuse to carry out their hateful actions.

I'm afraid, on watching the video (yes Morgan is an a*se we all know that), the bottom line is that Robinson is fueling the Isis cause and as a result putting our people just that little bit more at risk as more recruits are gained.

Sorry but that's just a cop out. You are doing exactly what I said too many people are still doing.

If you don't think Islam or the teachings in the Qur'an are the reason for all the Islamic terrorism, please tell me what you think it is that makes so many Muslims become terrorists compared to other faiths?

[ragingpup]

Sorry but that's just a cop out. You are doing exactly what I said too many people are still doing.

If you don't think Islam or the teachings in the Qur'an are the reason for all the Islamic terrorism, please tell me what you think it is that makes so many Muslims become terrorists compared to other faiths?

I think what makes a small minority of Muslims become terrorists is horribly complicated but is at root:

- a tendency throughout history of people who use religion (any religion) as a means to control and manipulate the masses into being subservient in a system that ultimately supports their power

- following from this, a more recent history of powerful, influential and persuasive individuals and/or organisations that seize on and manipulate words from a specific text that motivates a minority of believers to carry out extreme violence in their name. In return, as part of this arrangement, these remote 'terrorist leaders' enjoy an elevated prestige and power by those under their command or 'spell'.

Systematic, organised and ruthless psychological manipulation from individuals within organisations is the root cause of extremism.

Hope that helps?

[Ellis_D]

I think what makes a small minority of Muslims become terrorists is horribly complicated but is at root:

- a tendency throughout history of people who use religion (any religion) as a means to control and manipulate the masses into being subservient in a system that ultimately supports their power

- following from this, a more recent history of powerful, influential and persuasive individuals and/or organisations that seize on and manipulate words from a specific text that motivates a minority of believers to carry out extreme violence in their name. In return, as part of this arrangement, these remote 'terrorist leaders' enjoy an elevated prestige and power by those under their command or 'spell'.

Systematic, organised and ruthless psychological manipulation from individuals within organisations is the root cause of extremism.

Hope that helps?

My word, that is funny. If there weren't a hundred verses in the Qur'an inciting Muslims to kill or commit acts of violence against non-Muslims, the extremists who wish to manipulate others into doing their evil deeds would have nothing to back them up. As it happens, it's all their in their holy book. But you keep making excuses for them.

[ragingpup]

I should have also added (in this instance of terrorist evolution)

- the particular volatile nature of the middle east, the historic political and economic conditions with open religious hostility and genocide

- the part of western countries in encouraging overthrows of dictators/regimes without the crucial after thought of rebuilding the infrastructure.

- In Iraq our forces held all of the Iraqui soldiers together in the same prison free to fester and share their feelings of oppression and resentment - from here Isis was born in the first place and then, when we evacuated, left these people to take hold in Iraq and the surrounding regions.

I'm sure other factors will occur to me and others on here. Just trying to look at the roots of it, as it is an interesting and crucial question. Just blaming the text itself is far too simplistic and actually dangerously counter productive.

At the end of the day, the holy book over there is just the tool that is used to carry out the agendas of the terrorist leaders. True, they may live for and by the messages in the holy book, but as with most historic figures that have used religion as a means of obtaining and keeping power and domination, it is the power and control that really motivates.

[ragingpup]

My word, that is funny. If there weren't a hundred verses in the Qur'an inciting Muslims to kill or commit acts of violence against non-Muslims, the extremists who wish to manipulate others into doing their evil deeds would have nothing to back them up. As it happens, it's all their in their holy book. But you keep making excuses for them.

Its not making excuses, it's trying to look at, with the benefits of the huge amount of research out there, the answers to the valid question you raise with a view to eradicating the problem. It is complex. The nature of the text doesn't help, nor did the old testament in the christian crusades. But at the head of the crusades were the state and church leaders actioning slaughter in the name of God.

It's tremendously complex and difficult but that doesn't mean we should look to simplistic and poorly thought out answers to solve things.

[Ellis_D]

Its not making excuses, it's trying to look at, with the benefits of the huge amount of research out there, the answers to the valid question you raise with a view to eradicating the problem. It is complex. The nature of the text doesn't help, nor did the old testament in the christian crusades. But at the head of the crusades were the state and church leaders actioning slaughter in the name of God.

It's tremendously complex and difficult but that doesn't mean we should look to simplistic and poorly thought out answers to solve things.

There may well be a lot of contributing factors, granted, but the fact remains without those verses in the Qur'an in the first place, they would have no religious justification to back up their extremism. The verses in the Qur'an mean they can easily manipulate and radicalise believers as they truly do believe that it is the will of Allah.

The very best thing that education could achieve would be to convince everyone that either God/Allah doesn't exist, or that he only wants you to do good things. Unfortunately that is a long, long way off.

[ragingpup]

There may well be a lot of contributing factors, granted, but the fact remains without those verses in the Qur'an in the first place, they would have no religious justification to back up their extremism. The verses in the Qur'an mean they can easily manipulate and radicalise believers as they truly do believe that it is the will of Allah.

The very best thing that education could achieve would be to convince everyone that either God/Allah doesn't exist, or that he only wants you to do good things. Unfortunately that is a long, long way off.

So what would your immediate solution be?

[millmoormagic]

Once again Ellis, we come to the exact same place, time after time in every thread regarding Islam, or religion in general.

The fact is that the koran may state this that and the other, just like the bible does, and i don't care if you've read every word/verse/fullstop to be honest, the fact is that 99% of muslims do not follow the extreme version of it, the 1% do, guess which version you choose to 'follow'? yep, the same one the 1% do, the same applies to your 'Tommy' you see, you're part of the problem, and if you cannot see that you're demonising the 99% to get to the 1% then, like i've told you before, you're deluding yourself.

The same follows for the christian exremists, all full of bull, each and everyone.

[Ellis_D]

So what would your immediate solution be?

Deport foreigners on the terror suspects list, intern British ones, put much more money in to home security, more police officers, stop invading Islamic nations. More regulation of mosques and madrasas, more communication with the peaceful Islamic community, make sure there are no Muslim only areas (and by the same token no non-Muslim only areas), and politicians and moderate Muslims to accept it's the verses in the Qur'an that is the starting point of the radicalisation of some Muslims. Without them there could be no basis for the radicalisation.

[Ellis_D]

Once again Ellis, we come to the exact same place, time after time in every thread regarding Islam, or religion in general.

The fact is that the koran may state this that and the other, just like the bible does, and i don't care if you've read every word/verse/fullstop to be honest, the fact is that 99% of muslims do not follow the extreme version of it, the 1% do, guess which version you choose to 'follow'? yep, the same one the 1% do, the same applies to your 'Tommy' you see, you're part of the problem, and if you cannot see that you're demonising the 99% to get to the 1% then, like i've told you before, you're deluding yourself.

The same follows for the christian exremists, all full of bull, each and everyone.

I don't follow any version of the Qur'an. I don't demonise the majority who choose to ignore the evil verses either. I just acknowledge that the reason these extremists believe what they do in the first place, is because they DO choose to follow the evil verses in the Qur'an.

Look, I have been saying for years that the problem will only get worse if we continue the way we are. Well, nothing has changed with the way the media, the government and the moderate Muslims react, behave and treat the issue of extremism.

But the extremism has just got worse and worse. If we don't change our thinking, it will only continue to get worse and worse. I guess in five years time I will still be banging my head against a brick wall trying to get people to address the issue and see it for what it is, whilst terrorism continues to get worse. Only now we also have idiots committing terror attacks against Muslims now as well.

So we will continue as a nation to do nothing, Islamic extremists will continue to commit terror attacks in the name of Allah through following his orders in the Qur'an, the media, the government, the left, the moderate Muslims will all continue to say it has nothing to do with Islam, we will get more Islamic terror attacks, people will talk about how bad it is, light candles and put flags and filters on their Facebook accounts, tell everyone Islam is the religion of peace, more people will grow frustrated and there will be more revenge terror attacks, the real far right will find it easier to recruit people willing to do their bidding, there will be more terrorist attacks on mosques, Muslim extremists will find it easier to radicalise people in return and we will soon see schools, hospitals and football stadiums becoming targets of Islamic terrorism, people will react in anger, and there will be war on the streets.

Is that what you want? Because that's what's going to happen.