OT another terrorist attack.

[Ellis_D]

I've got to take issue with you there, John.

If Ellis is quoting Hammond, I'm certain that he will be Emeritus Professor of Politics at a leading University.

Ellis certainly wouldn't provide quotes from, say, a bloke with a doctorate in Missiology (the study of religious (typically Christian) missions and their methods and purposes, apparently), who works as missionary for the Frontline Missionary Church in South Africa. Ellis has made it clear how he has no time for any religions so would certainly not consider such a source to be reliable.

Come on Ellis, tell us who Dr Hammond is.

I obviously have no idea who Dr Hammond is, I'm not going to pretend I do. I just saw that on Facebook and if you look at what is being said - not who has written it - it all makes sense.

[Ellis_D]

Leaving to one side the report I quoted earlier from International Journal of Environmental Science and Development, Vol. 1, No. 2, June 2010 which estimated that the Muslim population in the U.K. Will remain at 4% in 2020 as the numbers of young people cast aside their faith after UK education offsets the growth of immigrants from Muslim oriented nations...

And leaving aside that an appearance of a Muslim population might automatically, in a capitalist society, produce a supply for Hal al food etc without "increased pressure" from muslims.

Leaving aside that a percentage of any alternative culture and faith in our schools and communities will make any good society look to accommodate and integrate their way of life alongside others BECAUSE THATS WHAT HEALTHY HUMANS DO!

Leaving that aside, and taking on your new Prof's assertions, I repeat my question: what do you propose to DO about it? What point are you making? How does it help us move forward in finding strategies that will actively tackle terrorism by fanatics twisting this religion. I've heard your earlier practical points, and agree. But how does THIS help us? What action should it lead us to other than to educate young Muslim and any other faith children in our schools to respect other cultures and beliefs?

I have already stated what I think should be done. But ultimately I am as powerless as everyone else on here, and I don't see that many other people coming up with ideas that might work.

THAT is down to the people in charge of the country and be it Labour or the Conservatives, they have all made a pig's ear of it so far.

[ragingpup]

I have already stated what I think should be done. But ultimately I am as powerless as everyone else on here, and I don't see that many other people coming up with ideas that might work.

THAT is down to the people in charge of the country and be it Labour or the Conservatives, they have all made a pig's ear of it so far.

The suggestions you have made are, quite rightly, aimed at the efforts against terrorists, hence I think they are worth consideration.

But you continue to vilify an entire religion, going even further with this proposition that there is some kind of systematic control agenda coming from Muslims. I accept that this wish to "control the world" is central to extremist thinking, that we all have to be conquered and for Islam to prevail. That is the nature of an EXTREMIST.

It's fair to say that there has been much resettling of Muslim populations into Europe but it sounds like you're equating this into a sinister religious agenda, instead of all the problems in the Middle East, and people having to leave their home countries against their will.

The point I'm making is that this proposition you are making is very different to a fight against extreme terrorists. If you see that this mass influx of Muslims as part of a world domination agenda then I think you should be looking at very different solutions to what you have proposed. Like indefinite bans on Muslims entering the country, mass deportations of all Muslims, censorship of the quar'an. Surely, if this is what you fear is happening to us, then these are the kinds of solutions you would be thinking of??

[Ellis_D]

The suggestions you have made are, quite rightly, aimed at the efforts against terrorists, hence I think they are worth consideration.

But you continue to vilify an entire religion, going even further with this proposition that there is some kind of systematic control agenda coming from Muslims. I accept that this wish to "control the world" is central to extremist thinking, that we all have to be conquered and for Islam to prevail. That is the nature of an EXTREMIST.

It's fair to say that there has been much resettling of Muslim populations into Europe but it sounds like you're equating this into a sinister religious agenda, instead of all the problems in the Middle East, and people having to leave their home countries against their will.

The point I'm making is that this proposition you are making is very different to a fight against extreme terrorists. If you see that this mass influx of Muslims as part of a world domination agenda then I think you should be looking at very different solutions to what you have proposed. Like indefinite bans on Muslims entering the country, mass deportations of all Muslims, censorship of the quar'an. Surely, if this is what you fear is happening to us, then these are the kinds of solutions you would be thinking of??

I think a ban on any more Muslims entering the country until or unless all this Islamic terrorism ends or at least is limited to very, very rare attacks would just be a common sense policy.

In an ideal world, the Qur'an would be banned, but so would the Bible and other religious books. But only because they are just lies written by men to suppress and control others, and pretended to be based upon the word of a non-existent God. I am certainly not suggesting we ban all religions and religious books though as it would obviously just cause even more conflict and unrest. However, I do think we should teach evolution as fact in schools and put much less emphasis on religious education and hopefully then in the future more people will realise the truth and understand that all religion is absolute b0llocks.

And again, I am certainly not suggesting we should kick all Muslims out of the country, as there are a lot of Muslims in jobs that we need them to do, not to mention most Muslims are peaceful. However, when you look at the percentages of Muslims in each country and see what Dr. Hammond wrote about them, you can't argue.

[KerrAvon]

However, when you look at the percentages of Muslims in each country and see what Dr. Hammond wrote about them, you can't argue.

That's where we differ, Ellis. To say that one can't argue with something found on Facebook (or, indeed, on much of the rest of the internet) is a recipe for disaster. That's particularly the case where no effort is made to establish a fact or two about the author.

I appreciate that it is an extreme suggestion, but if it did turn out that Dr Hammond actually was a person with a Doctorate in Missiology who operated as a missionary out of a South African Christian organisation, you’d necessarily question the extent and thoroughness of his research and wonder whether he is unbiased in the conclusions that he reaches from it. In that, obviously extreme, situation, you’d have to accept that the day job of the person selling the ‘analysis’ is to sell Christianity. Put another way, if you were contemplating buying a new car, would you accept without question a critique of BMWs from a salesman in a Mercedes franchise? I wouldn’t. And I’d certainly not post the comments of the Mercedes salesman on the internet as being proof of anything.

Have you been able to establish anything about Dr Hammond yet? It would be a shock if it turned out that he is a missionary with a Doctorate in Missiology who worked out of a mission in Cape Town wouldn’t it? Imagine the odds of that!

Again, I appreciate that you don’t like Christians being brought into this type of thread, but suppose someone (let’s be ridiculous and suggest a Muslim missionary for balance) did an analysis of the predominantly Christian countries in sub-Saharan Africa and then suggested that the corruption, inequality and incidents of ethnic cleansing that sadly mar a significant proportion of that part of that world should be attributed to Christianity, would you not be able to argue with that if you found it on Facebook?

You seem to rely upon two particular elements of the mysterious Dr Hammond’s argument; firstly the current tendency of Islamists to recruit in prisons and, secondly, the availability of Halal food in the UK.

On the first point, yes, people in prison often question where their lives are going and look to change. For that reason it is not at all unusual for them to ‘find’ religion. A number of clients of mine have undergone a Damoclean conversion and have found God (the Christian version) in their cells (although many of them seem to part company with him on their release). That makes it particularly dangerous to house Islamist prisoners alongside others.

On the Halal point, I suspect that it is business pressure that causes shops to sell Halal. A sensible retailer serves his market. That’s why Kosher shops exist in those parts of the country with a large Jewish population and why many supermarkets now sell Polish and other Eastern European products. As far as I’m aware, it hasn’t been suggested by Dr Hammond or anyone else that Jews and Poles have agitated for that. It would be absurd if he did.

[rolymiller]

Interesting points by Kerr and raging pup. You do need to take them on board Ellis because its becoming obvious to me that you do try to be fair minded. For me the horrible tragedy at grenfell tower reaffirmed to us all that people from all nations and cultures are happy to work together for the common good. It is this that we need to tap into not negative division. Most people on this planet just want a peaceful existence and fairness for their families whatever their beliefs.

[ragingpup]

From a person who has done some research on Hammond: http://idiotscrusade.blogspot.co.uk/...1_archive.html

"So – to Dr Peter Hammond himself. Who is he? A further on-line search took me to a site run by an American evangelist called Jay Rogers, whose recent posts include “Puritan Storm Rising”, “Abortion: The Religion of Witchcraft and Child Sacrifice”, “Occult Roots of Abortion” and bizarrely “Is “Nero” in the new Star Trek movie an intentional Christian allegory?”. On his site Rogers describes meeting Hammond:

“I had a couple of dynamic spiritual experiences this week. The first was meeting Dr. Peter Hammond of Frontline Fellowship, South Africa. Dr. Hammond is a personal “hero” of mine and is doing more to promote true Revival than anyone I can think of. He spoke of his mission’s work in Africa – the vision is no less than “All of Africa for Christ.” Hammond understands that Revival isn’t simply life-changing on a personal and pietistic level, but nation-changing and world-changing as well.”

Rogers has also posted a “ten commandments” style list of esoteric thoughts on what Hammond describes as “neo-Puritanism”, most of which is very dull reading, but points nine and ten read as follows:

“9. Frontline Fellowship’s vision is the transformation of all of Africa and the world. Neo-Puritanism is having an impact in these nations from children in home schools and church schools to the highest levels of government where presidents and high ranking officials are being impacted with world changing Gospel teaching.

10. We need to elect politicians with the backbone of Margaret Thatcher and Ronald Reagan who stood up to communism, not to appease anti-Christian tyranny, but to defeat it. Our attitude toward militant Islam should not be a “turn-the-other-cheek-pacifism.” Military action by African Christians in defense against Islam is not only permissible from a New Testament perspective, but mandated to defend the faith. There could even come a time in America when Christians may have to take up arms against invasive regimes, false religions and an oppressive government in our own land.”

In response there is a posting from “Anonymous commenting and asking: …Awesome, I want to link to this in facebook, how do I?, and Rogers passes on the link to him.

A quick search reveals that the “ten commandments of Dr Hammond” has registered at least 2,740 hits on Google.

A further search brought me to a site called Iviews.com, who quote Dr Hammond thus:

“In spite of the odds, the Christians [of Sudan] are ‘doing something’ about their situation, they are standing up against the evil of Islam. . . not only fighting for survival, but fighting to win back that nation for Christ.” – Derek Hammond, missionary affiliated with South African pro-apartheid group, Frontline Fellowship

It should be noted that Hammond refers here to the Christian Sudan Peoples Liberation Army – The SPLA claims to be defending the population of South Sudan from Khartoum’s army and from Islamization. “Though its members claim to be ‘Christians’ resisting Islamization, they have behaved like an occupying army, killing, raping and pillaging,” wrote the New York Times.

For clarity I should include Iviews.com’s ‘Mission’:

“Iviews.com is an interactive publication that focuses upon providing timely reporting and insightful analysis and commentary on issues and events of importance to Muslims. While the publication is written from a Muslim perspective, its focus is not religious. Rather, iViews.com simply strives to add balance and objectivity to an otherwise homogenous media pool. Through expanded news coverage of the Muslim world, in depth analysis of world, national and local issues and enlightened intellectual perspectives, iViews.com works to bring to the fore, issues that might have received only cursory attention from typical media sources.”

An article entitled “Christian ‘Slave Redeemers’ Linked to Pro-Apartheid Militants” by Ishmael Royer states:

“Christian “slave redeemers” who are allied with Sudanese rebels have close links to militant South African missionary groups with ties to the former apartheid government of South Africa.”

It goes on:

“In Touch Mission International (ITMI) is a Christian missionary group based in Tempe, Arizona. It is the American arm of the South Africa-based ultra-right missionary group Frontline Fellowship. Frontline Fellowship activists have made dozens of trips to South Sudan, where they say they “smuggle Bibles” to Christian Sudanese… The chairman of Frontline Fellowship is Peter Hammond, a former South African army sniper and intelligence officer. Hammond, the son-in-law of ITMI president Bill Bathman, formed Frontline Fellowship on a South African military base in Namibia, drawing on ex-Rhodesian commando units for members. Frontline Fellowship literature called the South African army under apartheid a “missionary force” which must be supported.”

So, with a little investigation, the real purpose of posting sections of Peter Hammonds book, (and disseminating it widely via the net) is revealed. The old saying “don’t believe everything you read” rings very true. Agendas can be lightly disguised from the casual reader, as in this case, where political and religious extremism spread hatred, lies and manipulated truths about the religion of Islam. In case anyone disputes the validity of Iview’s sources, I quote the bibliography of their article below, and advise you to go and read it at Iviews.com (Article Ref: IV9912-755) – dated 21/12/1999.

1. Time, December 21, 1998 pg. 44

2. On one trip in January of this year Wiebalck was accompanied by SPLA Executive Council Member Arthur Akuien Chol, John Garang’s minister of finance and economic planning. See The Indian Ocean Newsletter, April 26, 1997

3. United Press International October 30, 1989

4. Mail and Guardian (Johannesburg), September 23, 1999. The document referred to was reproduced in: Mail and Guardian (Johannesburg) September 19, 1997

5. Financial Times (London), September 8, 1986

6. Time, March 28, 1988; also, The Courier-Journal (Louisville, KY) March 19, 1988

7. Chicago Sun-Times 12/11/1987

8. The Indian Ocean Newsletter, November 27, 1999

9. Ibid.

10. Mail and Guardian (Johannesburg), September 23, 1999

11. The Arizona Republic, 10/29/1989 Page A14

12. Mail and Guardian, September 23, 1999

13. Africa News, November, 1989

14. Mail and Guardian, September 23, 1999

15. Africa News, November, 1989

16. For example: “Militia Leaders Propose Solution to End Montana Standoff,” PR Newswire, May 23, 1996

17. The Nation , 9/26/88, Pg. 228

And talking of newspapers two last views of Peter Hammond:

“If you believe Christ wants a holy war to preserve apartheid, the Reverend Peter Hammond is your general, his Frontline Fellowship your army,” wrote the National Catholic Reporter in 1989."


In short, a devout Christian missionary who has written a book with very poor sources slagging off a rival religion which has been massively quoted online by people with a similar agenda.

And on this you are basing an entire world view?

[rolymiller]

Certainly sounds a weird kind of guy this one. I certainly wouldn't trust his views nor should you Ellis. I credit you with more sense than that. Remember cooperation not division is the way forward.

[great_fire]

Since most of this board's apologists for mass child abuse are in this thread:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england...shire-40378523

[ragingpup]

Since most of this board's apologists for mass child abuse are in this thread:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england...shire-40378523

Excellent news GF. I'm just reading Sarah Wilson's book and it is stomach turning. I hope that all the men involved get arrested and fullest penalty. Hateful b*stards everyone of them that took part.

But what does that have to do with this thread????