O/T Sarah Champion

[mellowmiller]

Religion has a lot to answer for.

[fivetide]

Question is though - what is 'moderate'? Is it not forcing women into marriage? Is it occasionally having a drink? Is it treating everyone else with the same respect?

Is it not stoning women for adultery because they have been raped? Or is it simply arresting kids because they like to dance? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-41019013

My point is, there seem to be an awful lot more non-jihidist muslims out there than full on mad mullahs but that doesn't make them moderate by our western ways.

[Silly-miller]

Not sure how I feel about forced marriages with social media raising the standards on what people should be like for young ***** it may be a wrong solution to a everyday issue. Of course they don't do it because of this but many cultures like Japan china even Ireland have arranged marriages.

Also let me point out this fact a good portion of Muslim men don't see raping non Muslim women as rape since in their eyes they are already sinners for not following the teaching of the Karan so they are committing no sin in their view. Of course it's against the law but if you move abroad how long would it take you to learn the laws of the new place you moved too.

By no means am I making excuses for these dirt bags, however I am pointing out the stupidity of our councils and government for not forcing them to learn this stuff before settling into our society, but when has any government gave a dam about the safety of us normal people

[Zilzal]

I think Sarah is the prettiest MP that Rotherham has ever had.

And that's all that matters to me.

[great_fire]

All the others were men weren't they so not a lot of competition.

[ragingpup]

I think Sarah is the prettiest MP that Rotherham has ever had.

And that's all that matters to me.

[ragingpup]

Question is though - what is 'moderate'? Is it not forcing women into marriage? Is it occasionally having a drink? Is it treating everyone else with the same respect?

Is it not stoning women for adultery because they have been raped? Or is it simply arresting kids because they like to dance? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-41019013

My point is, there seem to be an awful lot more non-jihidist muslims out there than full on mad mullahs but that doesn't make them moderate by our western ways.

That's why I asked Monty where he was 'drawing the line' of moderate and non moderate.

Even with taking the issue you raised on 'arranged marriage' - that in itself has a huge range of practices and attitudes, not just from the Muslim faith but as Silly says lots of other cultures as well. This ranges from what I feel (just based on Muslims I have met and worked with) is the most common - of two families within their communities that arrange for two younglings to meet with a view to marriage but ultimately leave it up to them. Then you have a similar arrangement but a marriage date is arranged and the two younglings agree to and accept the arrangement. And then you get an arrangement where one/both of the younglings do not agree to it but are forced into it regardless and of course we hear of horrific cases of this happening where death threats are made, family honour being breached etc. I have met and spoken with two such people, both Muslims, both of whom were arranged to marry by their respective families and both are now raising children of their own. Both of them recognise that this is very alien to white Christian culture in the UK, and feel a bit embarrassed about it, but both regard themselves as happily married and in support of the way it works in their community. They can point to large scale marital breakdown and unhappy couples staying within marriages in 'conventional' western marriages. Of course, we can argue that unhappy 'conventionally' wedded people have the freedon to part ways and seek happiness elsewhere and that is an important point. But for this discussion of cultural differences and extremities, it is important to note the huge scale of differences within most religious and cultural customs if we are to avoid clumsy stereotypes along the lines of 'even moderate Muslims support extremist views'. Its vastly more complex than that.

Is it fair to say that there is a blurred but definite line between 'moderates' that are more parochial, homophobic and intolerant of other religions and ways of life but will draw the line at actually supporting terrorism? Of course there is, at some point, there will be a 'crossover' of such intolerant people who see Islam as the one and only true way but would stop short of supporting terrorism and killing people who do not agree with Islam - and the kind of criminal that actively engages in supporting and involving themselves in such activities.

You make interesting points along these lines here about 'stoning' and 'arresting people that dance'. My response is that a) both of these are extremist actions that have no place in our society and importantly b) do not in any way support your insinuation that "there are an awful lot more non jihadi muslims out there": Where? Where are these Muslims that are stoning women and arresting children for dancing? How does this relate to the world around us in our society? Leaving these examples aside, I understand and accept the general thrust of what you're saying, and Monty's to an extent. There are still quite parochial and what we might (a little patronisingly here - sorry for this!) call 'old fashioned' views that we may find distasteful, but remain completely within the law at every level. This is true but the same could be said for my old Mum! And many other of our elders who haven't 'benefited' from more enlightened (hmm) recent developments in our world.

In summary, from my experience and reading on this, I would go as far as saying that the vast majority of Mulsims are happy to abide and live by UK law and, although still incorporate elements of Muslim culture into our wider community (as do every immigrant population) are opposed to both a) imposing their beliefs onto other non believers, b) are opposed to any actions from fellow Muslims that inflict any kind of harm against people opposed to their viewpoint.

Isn't that the bit that really matters?

All the other attitudinal stuff (patriarchy, homophobia, equal rights etc) we can continue to challenge along with other cultures that oppose equal rights...

[brassgnat]

Actually 95% of abusers on official records are white male. And even if all of the other 5% were Asian , which they are not, it is not disproportionate

Why isn't Sarah saying that there is a White Male problem here. (Which I am, also christened, by the way! )

[Slimchance]

Actually 95% of abusers on official records are white male. And even if all of the other 5% were Asian , which they are not, it is not disproportionate

Why isn't Sarah saying that there is a White Male problem here. (Which I am, also christened, by the way! )

Brass the problem is that in the pakistani muslim community large groups of them seem to think that RAPING CHILDREN IS OK.

The majority of child abuse is committed by white christian men, but it is done alone or in 2s or 3s. The reason being that the moral compass of the over whelming majority of WCM would either sort the abusers out themselves or report it to the police.

I hope this helps you to understand.

[Heliosphan]

Actually 95% of abusers on official records are white male. And even if all of the other 5% were Asian , which they are not, it is not disproportionate

Why isn't Sarah saying that there is a White Male problem here. (Which I am, also christened, by the way! )

Why don't you google "grooming gang statistics" and post your findings you anti-white racist idiot. You, and people like you, are the exact reason this was swept under the carpet for years in Rotherham and other places. Your own MP can see it, why can't you?