OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[Andy_Faber]

As for getting rid of MP’s every 4-5 years...you know that rarely happens. Given our system, complacent MP’s in safe seats would have to commit mass child murder in order to be voted out.

I'll let Nick Clegg and Alex Salmond know.

[ramAnag]

I'll let Nick Clegg and Alex Salmond know.

So you’re building your case around exceptions, Andy...the two - and I’ll even concede a few more - out of 650.
Never the best of ideas.

My point is Ram59...we are no better off with home grown politicians...who do you think has done more for workers’ rights in the last forty years or so...the EU or any Tory Government?

[Andy_Faber]

So you’re building your case around exceptions, Andy...the two - and I’ll even concede a few more - out of 650.
Never the best of ideas.

My point is Ram59...we are no better off with home grown politicians...who do you think has done more for workers’ rights in the last forty years or so...the EU or any Tory Government?

I would suggest that it was the Labour Government who most adversely impacted lower paid workers' rights, pay rates and employment prospects, plus made the job of those in work harder, over the past two decades by not exercising the optional moratorium on free access to UK of people from Eastern EU countries in the 90s. That might not be right, but its a point of view, but to some extent backed up by cabinet ministers of the time who have confirmed it was partly done in spite at the Tories, who had gone out of power wanting the moratorium. I'm absolutely not saying the Tories aren't a callous bunch when the mood takes them, but whereas the Tories might just be thinking of themselves to the detriment of the UK plebicite, the Labourists in this case were thinking of the whole of Europe, yet STILL to the detriment of the UK plebicite.

On the Clegg/Salmond thing, my quick fire response maybe hid the fact that, especially at the last election, quite a lot of non-child-murdering folk were tactically voted out, some based not on overall performance but on a single decision (their Brexit vote)

[Ram59]

So you’re building your case around exceptions, Andy...the two - and I’ll even concede a few more - out of 650.
Never the best of ideas.

My point is Ram59...we are no better off with home grown politicians...who do you think has done more for workers’ rights in the last forty years or so...the EU or any Tory Government?

But, my point is that we're powerless to stop the eu doing virtually whatever it wants to do. The tories can be and have been voted out of office when the people wanted them gone.

[AdiSalisbury]

The personal accountability of our politicians vs the non-accountability of the EU was a big factor in changing my vote to leave. In theory, they (MP's) should be working to appease their constituents, it's in their interests to act in our interests. They may not be very good and may be very corrupt, but it's the lesser of 2 evils in my mind.

[MadAmster]

The EU should, under their own Laws/rules have an independent audit every year. They never have had. Why? Is it because they are afraid that the audit will show exactly where the several billion a year that "goes missing" has gone and they don't want fiinding out. Where do those billions go? Why have they also never held a huge inquiry into this annual abomination?

Only they can tell.. don't hold your breath.

[Andy_Faber]

The EU should, under their own Laws/rules have an independent audit every year. They never have had. Why? Is it because they are afraid that the audit will show exactly where the several billion a year that "goes missing" has gone and they don't want fiinding out. Where do those billions go? Why have they also never held a huge inquiry into this annual abomination?

Only they can tell.. don't hold your breath.

As a matter of interest, what's the mood about EU like in t't Netherlands? We only ever get spun info in UK of course, be it pro or anti.

[ramAnag]

But, my point is that we're powerless to stop the eu doing virtually whatever it wants to do. The tories can be and have been voted out of office when the people wanted them gone.

I do take your point Ram59 but let’s put it in context...I think I’m right in saying that the Tories were returned to office via the votes of around 24% of the electorate at the last election. I think I may also be right in saying that more people didn’t actually vote at all than voted for either of the two major parties. I appreciate that there are clear and obvious dangers associated with unelected authorities having too much power but there are times when I do wonder about the ‘benefits’ of democracy especially when you look at what it has currently led to.

[MadAmster]

As a matter of interest, what's the mood about EU like in t't Netherlands? We only ever get spun info in UK of course, be it pro or anti.

There is, or was at any rate, a large groundswell of #Nexit until we voted #Brexit and the EU started talking about robbing us blind to pay for the impudence of turning our backs..... That allied to the Trump and Macron votes slowed the extremes down. There is, however, still a general feeling that there is "too much Brussels" involvement in stuff they shouldn't be involved in. The US of E is not popular, except under politicians. They still haven't been told about the EU Army.

If there was a referendum tomorrow with 3 choices, #Nremain, #Nexit or #1991 pre Maastricht agreement reverting to the Common Market Trade Area, IMO the latter would win.

The Dutch, like the UK are net payers into the EU, paying far more in than they get out. The politicians spin the number of high profile jobs Dutch former politicians get in Brussels to "show" how the Dutch are very present at the influencing table. The electorate buy it.

Those who still buy in to the "the UK has shot itself in the foot" camp genuinely feel sorry for us. They haven't forgotten 2 world wars and are still very grateful that the UK stood alone, for a time in 2 WW's, and saved Europe from the Germans (who, together with the French, are now conquering Europe via the back door). Just maybe we are right to stand alone again against a very different kind of "enemy" this time.

[ramAnag]

So...the Dutch ‘haven’t been told about the EU Army’...and yet the Daily Mail, Express and various other scaremongers, including some on this site, know all about it. Seems unlikely.

Maybe that’s because the nearest thing to an EU Army is actually NATO and most people think that’s a reasonable thing.

Tbf MA, which I know you invariably are, wasn’t it the Nazis rather than the ‘Germans’ who Europe was saved from and, if your appraisal is correct, wouldn’t we have been better staying in and fighting our corner alongside the other nations against this supposed German/French rear entry alliance?