o/t Does anyone seriously believe Corbyn is an anti-semite?

[KerrAvon]

It is (an Apartheid regime) and has been from the day it was created. A bit if history always helps in understanding how we got to the current situation.

The country was created by forcibly evicting the original Palastinian inhabitants rendering them stateless and homeless, moving them to a completely different region and replacing their old home territory with Jews. Too right Palestinians are a bit p*ssed off.

The architects of Israel, Imperial Britain and the USA, in the period around the middle of the last century, as the Empire was breaking up, had the notion that humanity would be best served by living in separate communities. They drew lines in the sand to create separate states and separated different races/cultures to its own territory; that we would all move forward living in total harmony.

The reality is completely different. They created fault lines and conflicts across regions that have endured to this day (as we found in Israel, South Africa, Iran/Iraq, USA, Ireland and India/Pak).

Israel is a classic one culture state. The definition of Apartheid from google dictionary: 'a policy or system of segregation or discrimination on grounds of race.' Cant see how it is anything else.

I’m afraid that you need to check your history. A few points:

Palestine has never existed as a state. It is a part of the world that was part of one empire or another throughout history When the Ottoman empire was dismantled at the end of WW1, it became a British protectorate, which it remained until the creation of Israel in 1948.

The Jewish population of the area known as Palestine had been growing from the middle of the 19th century or so as the diaspora grew weary of being killed off in one pogrom or another. The rate of Jewish emigration to Palestine accelerated with the rise of Nazism in Europe and, not unsurprisingly, after WW2 ended.

Israel was created by the UN (Resolution 181), which proposed the creation of what, in essence, would have been the two state solution now seen as the only way to resolve the conflict in the region. Jerusalem – which is the centre of three religions - was to have been placed under international control. The Jewish authorities accepted the proposal whereas the Arab side did not, preferring instead to declare war on Israel on the day it was created.

Israel has been attacked by its neighbours on two further occasions since 1948, with the West Bank and Golan heights being effectively annexed - for security reasons initially - after the 1967 war.

As for the notion that the British government at the time of the creation of Israel had apartheid views – that’s interesting in a ridiculous sort of way. It was, of course, a Labour government led by Clem Atlee and one that didn’t seem to realise that it believed in racial separation given that it was pursuing policies that brought the first of the Windrush generation to the UK 38 days after the day on which Israel came into being

It should be noted that the pogroms and the rise of Nazism that drove the diaspora to return to Palestine were, in turn driven, in part, by the type of prejudiced caricature of Jews that appears in the mural that Corbyn defended and which you ignored in response to my post.

With the greatest of respect, your black and white, one sided, VI Form debating society view of things is just plain wrong and neatly demonstrates why Labour has found itself in such a pickle over antisemitism. Yes, some atrocities were committed against Arab Palestinians and some were driven from their homes during the 1948 war and Israel continues to behave at times in way that is unlikely to secure lasting peace, but, as I stated, Israel is a secular parliamentary democracy with a free press and an independent judiciary that has bucked the trend in the region by delivering prosperity for its people, including the 20% or so who are ethnic Arabs and who can partake in elections and return Arab representatives the Knesset. How is that an Apartheid system?

[ragingpup]

I’m afraid that you need to check your history. A few points:

Palestine has never existed as a state. It is a part of the world that was part of one empire or another throughout history When the Ottoman empire was dismantled at the end of WW1, it became a British protectorate, which it remained until the creation of Israel in 1948.

The Jewish population of the area known as Palestine had been growing from the middle of the 19th century or so as the diaspora grew weary of being killed off in one pogrom or another. The rate of Jewish emigration to Palestine accelerated with the rise of Nazism in Europe and, not unsurprisingly, after WW2 ended.

Israel was created by the UN (Resolution 181), which proposed the creation of what, in essence, would have been the two state solution now seen as the only way to resolve the conflict in the region. Jerusalem – which is the centre of three religions - was to have been placed under international control. The Jewish authorities accepted the proposal whereas the Arab side did not, preferring instead to declare war on Israel on the day it was created.

Israel has been attacked by its neighbours on two further occasions since 1948, with the West Bank and Golan heights being effectively annexed - for security reasons initially - after the 1967 war.

As for the notion that the British government at the time of the creation of Israel had apartheid views – that’s interesting in a ridiculous sort of way. It was, of course, a Labour government led by Clem Atlee and one that didn’t seem to realise that it believed in racial separation given that it was pursuing policies that brought the first of the Windrush generation to the UK 38 days after the day on which Israel came into being

It should be noted that the pogroms and the rise of Nazism that drove the diaspora to return to Palestine were, in turn driven, in part, by the type of prejudiced caricature of Jews that appears in the mural that Corbyn defended and which you ignored in response to my post.

With the greatest of respect, your black and white, one sided, VI Form debating society view of things is just plain wrong and neatly demonstrates why Labour has found itself in such a pickle over antisemitism. Yes, some atrocities were committed against Arab Palestinians and some were driven from their homes during the 1948 war and Israel continues to behave at times in way that is unlikely to secure lasting peace, but, as I stated, Israel is a secular parliamentary democracy with a free press and an independent judiciary that has bucked the trend in the region by delivering prosperity for its people, including the 20% or so who are ethnic Arabs and who can partake in elections and return Arab representatives the Knesset. How is that an Apartheid system?

Ok - I'll run with that. In the historical struggle between two cultures in one territory, you begin your account in 1918 and the dismantlement of the Ottoman Empire, of whose people had lived in the whole area for several hundred years. You talk as if this was ground zero, and the history before that wasn't and isn't an issue.

Which religion were the Ottoman people?

I would agree that Jews had been settling back into Palestine for years leading up to the 1st war and beyond but this occured without significant conflict between the two religions. It was only when the carve up happened in 1948, and a chunk of former Palestinian land was suddenly designated as 'Israel', with official borders etc that severe issues came, not least by way of resentment from the Muslim people who had existed there for centuries! Surely that's an important aspect to write into your account?

[KerrAvon]

Ok - I'll run with that. In the historical struggle between two cultures in one territory, you begin your account in 1918 and the dismantlement of the Ottoman Empire, of whose people had lived in the whole area for several hundred years. You talk as if this was ground zero, and the history before that wasn't and isn't an issue.

Which religion were the Ottoman people?

I would agree that Jews had been settling back into Palestine for years leading up to the 1st war and beyond but this occured without significant conflict between the two religions. It was only when the carve up happened in 1948, and a chunk of former Palestinian land was suddenly designated as 'Israel', with official borders etc that severe issues came, not least by way of resentment from the Muslim people who had existed there for centuries! Surely that's an important aspect to write into your account?

Bimey. How far back would you like me to go? The early hominds who came out of Africa?

Since the 7th century, the region known as Palestine was occupied by predominantly Muslim people. There was a Jewish population throughout, however. In 1099, the Jewish population of the area fought alongside the Muslims against the 1st Crusade (and were massacred for it). After Saladin took Jerusalem in 1187 he encouraged Jews to return to the city and guaranteed their safety and rights.

The Ottoman Empire was generally tolerant of both its Christian and Jewish citizens, with some occasional exceptions.

The return of Jews to the area known as Palestine was largely peaceful under the Ottoman Empire, but the suggestion that everything was ok until 1948 is just plain wrong. The British mandate over the area saw numerous uprisings as a reaction to the influx of Jews that occurred during that time culminating in The Great Revolt of 1936 onwards.

Where are you going with this? I’m guessing that you want to join WanChai and, it seems, Corbyn and half the Labour Party in their rather naïve, starkly black and white and simplistic view of the history of the area, but the reality is that the Jewish settlement of the area had been a long slow burn long before the UN passed Resolution 181. The Jewish people there in 1948 included people from families who had lived in the area for centuries. The UN proposed a two state solution to the situation that already existed on the ground , but the Arabs refused electing to try to ‘push the Jews into the sea’. The rest is a rather tragic history.