O/T DDay for Brexit..well sort of...

[ragingpup]

Are you applauding your own comment Stovic?! Might try that myself!

[Exiletyke]

Where have I said that I have campaigned for another vote? I am in favour of reaching a deal to leave the EU, respecting the vote.

Yes, we voted to Leave. But what do you mean by 'Leave'? And why is what you mean by 'Leave' any more valid to what anyone else who voted Leave meant by their voting 'Leave'?

Hence the mess.

No one can agree on how we should leave the EU and no one way of doing so has a decisive, conclusive deal that can go through. Parliament is a pretty good selection of the Nation - completely split and unable to agree on a compromise that will win the day.

Personally, I would prefer May to align more with Labour's proposals published today, and have always argued for something along those lines. But, and this is crucial, I would accept May's deal in it's current form, if enough MPs voted for it to get it through parliament. With or without changes to the backstop.

I can understand us wanting to go back and test the EU. If May succeeded, I would be shocked but mightily impressed, and actually a little bit relieved. But it seems that the EU has it's own bottom line (and who of us would really move below our bottom line in a negotiated deal, is that what were getting so cross with the EU about?) and repeatedly is saying that it will not reopen the WA. So we are left with May's existing deal on the table.

Where do we go from here? I know you want us to Leave with No Deal but let's be honest, not enough people in Parliament or in the country as a whole wants that, so it is very unlikely to happen.

So all that being said, what are we left with? Where can we go? It's fine to say 'we should tell them to stick it' etc but in reality, we have to deal with a real situation, with consequences, and I don't think that our politicians are going to let that happen. Rightly in my view. But that's only my view - off to the Tower with me Grist...

The default may yet happen, in which case many in here will be mightily pleased and we'd have to live with it. But the indicator in parliament was that it wouldn't happen, so we will have to deal with what we can agree. And if we can't agree, what do we do then? If we can get something close to a consensus in Parliament but not quite, I would go with That Deal v Leave with No Deal as a public vote. But the more impossible that even getting close looks, I'd be more inclined to go with Leave with No Deal v Remain just to put the whole bloody thing to bed! It least a mandate would be agreed that was clear and decisive. Just as the first vote should have been. If you want a binary choice, make the options binary.

You ought to be in Parliament & join the ditherers as your view meanders from one argument to the other
Make your mind up & nail your colours to the mast man, otherwise I might start agreeing with you know who
You say you know that I want us to leave with a no deal & you'd be quite right
But trying to work out where you are on the issue is impossible depending what day it is & which way the wind is blowing

If we had a 2nd referendum & the vote was a narrow result either way ....then what?

[Exiletyke]

The people decided in a democratic vote to leave. Following that it's the duty of all MPs to honour that decision and to find the best way to leave. Not leaving and purposefully opposing all moves to leave isn't an option.

Cable should either join in and find a way to leave the EU or resign.

Blood hell Grist I agree with you again .......most worrying

[ragingpup]

As I said above: "Personally, I would prefer May to align more with Labour's proposals published today, and have always argued for something along those lines"

That's what I think and always have done - probably way back in the history of this thread.

So you want to leave with No Deal. I want to Leave with a Deal along the lines of a customs union with environment, customer and employment rights embedded. Both would involve us leaving the EU. But which one is most valid?

[Exiletyke]

I'm not a remainer. To date, I've been happy to accept the vote and argue for a Leave deal that is in the best interests of the majority in the UK, Leavers and Remainers together. I'm pointing out the problem where people call someone a traitor for continuing to maintain an argument against the vote. It's a right to free speech. Isn't it?

Think you should address your remarks to Mr Tusk as well

[ragingpup]

Think you should address your remarks to Mr Tusk as well

I did. He couldn't hear me because of the flames.

[millmoormagic]

In the referendum campaign, i was quite neutral and willing to listen to the debate, the more the campaigns went on, it was quite clear to me the underlying theme of the leave campaign, driven by the prominence of right wing politicians in that camp, that theme was one of falsehoods and 'jonny foreigner' hatred, the remain camp wasn't much better, but i'd say that what was forecast by them then, has been forecast again and again by just about every finanacial expert since, that brexit will hit the country hard, depending on what type of brexit the severity.

I don't want another vote, i also don't want a no deal brexit, which will absolutely hammer the working class folk in this country, again, and have the richest rubbing their hands with glee leaving them able to strip your rights futher and further, if there was a no deal, i'd want a labour gov't in to sort the shyte out.

In short, soft brexit does it for me, simple as that.

[Exiletyke]

As I said above: "Personally, I would prefer May to align more with Labour's proposals published today, and have always argued for something along those lines"

That's what I think and always have done - probably way back in the history of this thread.

So you want to leave with No Deal. I want to Leave with a Deal along the lines of a customs union with environment, customer and employment rights embedded. Both would involve us leaving the EU. But which one is most valid?

Well I'm not too sure maybe we could leave with no deal or perhaps leave with a deal along the lines indicated but then again I might prefer something in the middle or perhaps we could remain
What about freedom of movement, making our own laws,
You're neither in nor out

[Stovicmiller]

Are you applauding your own comment Stovic?! Might try that myself!

Sorry I was replying to someone else

[ragingpup]

Well I'm not too sure maybe we could leave with no deal or perhaps leave with a deal along the lines indicated but then again I might prefer something in the middle or perhaps we could remain
What about freedom of movement, making our own laws,
You're neither in nor out

I think I confused you by going through a list of possibles further down the line. Let me stick to what I would like now to resolve the issue. To avoid the potential scenarios that are clouding things here.

I would like May to return back and negotiate an agreement with Corbyn that proposes a deal that involves a CU arrangement and guarantees minimum protections on environment, customer and employment protections. There will most likely have to be some further concessions on both sides but that 'softer' Brexit is what I would like.

Just to be clear, this arrangement would involve us leaving the EU. It's just that it looks quite different from the one you would like. But what I don't get is why you should seem to think that yours is more valid than mine, or any Leave voter who voted with a view to getting a deal.

But there are MPs in parliament that represent your viewpoint, and those that represent mine. Let's hope that they can get together and agree on something soon. If it doesn't look like what I would like, then so be it. I'll live with it.

But if all parties remain unable to agree a way forward, and Leave is taken off the table, how do we get out of it? Any suggestions?