O/T DDay for Brexit..well sort of...

[Shark27]

I actually agree with you. The original binary vote would only be valid if it was clearly 'leave without a deal'. But most in the leave campaign went to great lengths to secure votes by saying that it would be easy, once we voted to leave to secure a trade deal with the EU. So x number of people voted to leave based on this being easy to be secured.

I think we can safely say that the 48% remainers would vote to remain. The question is how many of the 52% want to leave with no deal?

I suspect very strongly that more than 2% want to leave but only with a deal? Do you contest that? On what basis? We're meant to be a democracy. If we aim to be this, we need to frame democratic decisions with clarity. The original vote made no clear distinction between leave with deal and leave with no deal, and so we are ****ed for clarity. Its that simple.

So leave with no deal remains, democratically, a minority deal. Unless we can prove otherwise. By...a confirmation vote with clarity of choice on the vote this time?

Actually, personally, if rather just not do that. Id rather just the mps have free votes to establish the consensus on the most popular deal. If you don't trust the mps, then fine, put it back to the people. But don't just claim a victory that you aren't entitled to.

It was clearly leave or remain.

Have we left?

[John2]

It was clearly leave or remain.

Have we left?

No, because it wasn't clear enough what leave meant and Parliament is paralysed by that simple fact.

[Shark27]

No, because it wasn't clear enough what leave meant and Parliament is paralysed by that simple fact.

To leave the EU means that you are not part of the EU. Simple.

If you want to make a trade deal with the EU then so be it but like everyone else who has ever made a deal with the EU, you have to be out of it!!!!

[John2]

To leave the EU means that you are not part of the EU. Simple.

If you want to make a trade deal with the EU then so be it but like everyone else who has ever made a deal with the EU, you have to be out of it!!!!

Norway are not part of the EU.

Would you be happy if we had the same relationship as Norway?

[Shark27]

Norway are not part of the EU.

Would you be happy if we had the same relationship as Norway?

Norway were not part of the EU when they made their deal were they? Were they?

Why dont you show me another edited video saying that Farage wanted a Norway deal?

[millersrus]

Norway are not part of the EU.

Would you be happy if we had the same relationship as Norway?

A Norway type deal would be the worst outcome, they pay but have no say and have effectively to accept everything the EU does. It’s the price they pay for keeping in the Trading area.
It’s leaving without leaving, in name only.
UK did not vote for this and no way would they ever do so.
https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2017/...nce-to-the-eu/

[WanChaiMiller]

If leave means leave and the idea of Brexit to bring sovereignty back to the UK then leaving with no deal to trade under WTO will not achieve that end.

WTO rules are made at their head office in Geneva - we have no say in formulating trading*regulations. The resolution of trade disputes are done in by WTO nominated bodies applying WTO legislation - the UK courts have no influence at all.

So not only a really dumb deal for UK businesses but totally undemocratic. I dont see how it can be considered a realistic option.

[Exiletyke]

If leave means leave and the idea of Brexit to bring sovereignty back to the UK then leaving with no deal to trade under WTO will not achieve that end.

WTO rules are made at their head office in Geneva - we have no say in formulating trading*regulations. The resolution of trade disputes are done in by WTO nominated bodies applying WTO legislation - the UK courts have no influence at all.

So not only a really dumb deal for UK businesses but totally undemocratic. I dont see how it can be considered a realistic option.

Not quite as you portray
https://www.wto.org/english/thewto_e...e/whatis_e.htm

[WanChaiMiller]

This is for those who say if remain had won that would be the end of it.

Just to remind you before the referendum Nigel Farage warned he would "fight for a second referendum on Britain in Europe if the remain campaign won by a narrow margin next month. In a 52-48 referendum this would be unfinished business by a long way. If the remain campaign win two-thirds to one-third that ends it.”

By this measure its unfinished business.

[KerrAvon]

If leave means leave and the idea of Brexit to bring sovereignty back to the UK then leaving with no deal to trade under WTO will not achieve that end.

WTO rules are made at their head office in Geneva - we have no say in formulating trading*regulations. The resolution of trade disputes are done in by WTO nominated bodies applying WTO legislation - the UK courts have no influence at all.

So not only a really dumb deal for UK businesses but totally undemocratic. I dont see how it can be considered a realistic option.

That's a nonsense argument. Entering into any sort of international obligation or treaty arguably involves a degree of surrender of sovereignty. As an example, the UK is a signatory to the European Convention on Human Rights and accepts the jurisdiction of the European Court of Human Rights. The point is, however, that our democratically elected government chose to surrender a degree of autonomy and sovereignty in doing so.

Being a member of the EU involves a substantial surrender of sovereignty. One of the arguments in the referendum campaign was that we had given up too much and that we should take it back. That side of the argument 'won' in a democratic exercise.

From a personal perspective, leaving the EU but remaining subject to some of its laws and the jurisdiction of its court is a complete red line. That amounts to a surrender of sovereignty that results in us being subject to laws that we have not been involved in making. That is truly is undemocratic and why I reject such nonsense as the Norway model or permanent membership of a Customs Union. Remaining or a no deal are both preferable to that.