O/T DDay for Brexit..well sort of...

[MillerBill]

Ok if you're going to start a Kerrism try this one
https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/0...-after-brexit/

It says it all but the brainwashed,blinkered remoaners will not accept facts.

[animallittle3]

Ok if you're going to start a Kerrism try this one
https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/0...-after-brexit/

The Spectator talking sense , jeez we do live in strange times exile .

[Exiletyke]

For the past few days I've looked in to the left and it's historical viewpoint of the UK in the european project since we joined in 1973 .

I've done it because

A , I'm sad .

B , its pyssed it down these last few days .

C , I was fecking curious given most of my views don't reconcile with the vanity project that is the left today .

My research found that the British Left aligned themselves with the Tory right and campaigned to leave the EEC in 1975 , Tony Benn and Enoch Powell shared the stage , a young Jeremy Corbyn was a background activist .

The Trade Unions in 1975 recommended the members should vote to leave the EEC .

Bear in mind the Trade Unions in 1975 were a very big deal and held massive influence back then on the working class .

Now if you fast forward to today and what is often described as a left leaning Labour leadership you'd conclude that they are remainers , the trade unions are remainers , the Labour membership are remain and supposedly support groups such as Momentum are pro EU , the various strains of the parliamentary Labour Party are very much remainers .

So what you might say .

Well consider the 2016 referendum geographical results , the leave vote was at its highest in the old heavy industrial heartlands , in other words historically fertile left wing areas with a trade union heritage .

The electorate in these brexit heartlands were leavers right from the moment we joined the common market in 1973 .

Right from remainer PM Harold Wilson through to euromaniac Tony Blair and on to supposedly left wing Corbyn the left have been abandoned or should I say the electorate in brexitland have been abandoned , by their own fecking party for five decades .

Corbyn and the present Labour Party haven't done anything new they've simply followed the same rhetoric from the 1970's .

The electorate in the brexit heartlands haven't changed one iota in over fifty years .

This wasn't just a Tory Party problem at all , it was a Labour one too the difference is no fecker in the Labour Party could be @ssed to take the blinkers off or were too busy chasing Oliver and Natasha's vote in Hertfordshire under Blair .

At least Blair wrote his own lyrics and tunes and just expected us to buy his music .

This tw@t Corbyn's had the lyrics wrote for him for over 50 years and still won't record the song .

Corbyn !!!

Left wing my @ss , even the McCluskey's have turned full circle .

Hail Dennis Skinner the last true lefty still standing .

Wait for it!

[ragingpup]

Ok if you're going to start a Kerrism try this one
https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/0...-after-brexit/

Its not Kerrism. Its a counter argument in a debate. Grow up.

So we have an agreed amount, set by negotiation of our government and the EU to cover agreed costs leading up to 2020. Obviously this is going down as we move closer to that date without departing and therefore receiving the benefits of eu membership as well as continuing our payments. The spectator article links to valid arguments as to why this might be not considered a 'debt' and obviously we'll have the EU lawyers who will aim to make us pay our dues in the event of no deal.

So if we leave on no deal, its our lawyers against theirs. No doubt this will appeal to your 'bulldog' spirit, but to me, it seems quite plain that it you agree to put into a budget for a set amount of time (until 2020 was the budget we'd committed to) and then you leave before the end of that term, then you simply pay what is due. We could of course, get the best lawyers and try to argue it out as the spectator suggests, but all seems pretty low to me for my country to resort to this. Just pay your bill and get out the bar!

Assuming you're right and we can walk away without legal challenge and no deal, and we find that we actually would like that eu deal after all (what with them being our nearest neighbours and by far our biggest trade partners by a huge distance) I don't think it any surprise that they will be asking for this remaining tab to be paid before discussions begin. But if course, we're 'bulldoggers' aren't we? Ugly and full of **** :-)

[BigLadonOS]

Its not Kerrism. Its a counter argument in a debate. Grow up.

So we have an agreed amount, set by negotiation of our government and the EU to cover agreed costs leading up to 2020. Obviously this is going down as we move closer to that date without departing and therefore receiving the benefits of eu membership as well as continuing our payments. The spectator article links to valid arguments as to why this might be not considered a 'debt' and obviously we'll have the EU lawyers who will aim to make us pay our dues in the event of no deal.

So if we leave on no deal, its our lawyers against theirs. No doubt this will appeal to your 'bulldog' spirit, but to me, it seems quite plain that it you agree to put into a budget for a set amount of time (until 2020 was the budget we'd committed to) and then you leave before the end of that term, then you simply pay what is due. We could of course, get the best lawyers and try to argue it out as the spectator suggests, but all seems pretty low to me for my country to resort to this. Just pay your bill and get out the bar!

Assuming you're right and we can walk away without legal challenge and no deal, and we find that we actually would like that eu deal after all (what with them being our nearest neighbours and by far our biggest trade partners by a huge distance) I don't think it any surprise that they will be asking for this remaining tab to be paid before discussions begin. But if course, we're 'bulldoggers' aren't we? Ugly and full of **** :-)

And what about the 10 billion plus they owe us from investments etc that profits have been made from and our share of rebates etc. Because we have continued to pay while we have been in the EU since the brexit vote I think you will find that if any money is owed at the moment it will be in our favour.

[ragingpup]

For the past few days I've looked in to the left and it's historical viewpoint of the UK in the european project since we joined in 1973 .

I've done it because

A , I'm sad .

B , its pyssed it down these last few days .

C , I was fecking curious given most of my views don't reconcile with the vanity project that is the left today .

My research found that the British Left aligned themselves with the Tory right and campaigned to leave the EEC in 1975 , Tony Benn and Enoch Powell shared the stage , a young Jeremy Corbyn was a background activist .

The Trade Unions in 1975 recommended the members should vote to leave the EEC .

Bear in mind the Trade Unions in 1975 were a very big deal and held massive influence back then on the working class .

Now if you fast forward to today and what is often described as a left leaning Labour leadership you'd conclude that they are remainers , the trade unions are remainers , the Labour membership are remain and supposedly support groups such as Momentum are pro EU , the various strains of the parliamentary Labour Party are very much remainers .

So what you might say .

Well consider the 2016 referendum geographical results , the leave vote was at its highest in the old heavy industrial heartlands , in other words historically fertile left wing areas with a trade union heritage .

The electorate in these brexit heartlands were leavers right from the moment we joined the common market in 1973 .

Right from remainer PM Harold Wilson through to euromaniac Tony Blair and on to supposedly left wing Corbyn the left have been abandoned or should I say the electorate in brexitland have been abandoned , by their own fecking party for five decades .

Corbyn and the present Labour Party haven't done anything new they've simply followed the same rhetoric from the 1970's .

The electorate in the brexit heartlands haven't changed one iota in over fifty years .

This wasn't just a Tory Party problem at all , it was a Labour one too the difference is no fecker in the Labour Party could be @ssed to take the blinkers off or were too busy chasing Oliver and Natasha's vote in Hertfordshire under Blair .

At least Blair wrote his own lyrics and tunes and just expected us to buy his music .

This tw@t Corbyn's had the lyrics wrote for him for over 50 years and still won't record the song .

Corbyn !!!

Left wing my @ss , even the McCluskey's have turned full circle .

Hail Dennis Skinner the last true lefty still standing .

Hey animal. Was in the midst of responding to your earlier post on this issue a couple of days ago but Internet cut out and too pissed off to start again. So try to keep it brief. In short, I think you're right, there is a huge disconnect between the 'heartlands' and Labour. But I don't think this is a problem with labour, just a growing divergence between their values and the values of many of the heartland voters. In short, many of these voters, now in the thrall of Farage, and Johnson if he keeps the current tone, have developed values that Labour cannot, and should not, try to match. These voters have genuine reason to be angry, are rightly pissed off at a London centric political and economic system and have been shat on for decades. But they are unfortunately blaming this not in the economic system, and their leaders for the last 40 years of direction, but on immigration and the EU. Labour is an internationalist organisation, recognises the role that migrants play in or economy and services and on balance that they provide a net economic gain for the economy. That's not to say that migration has worked well in some areas where integration is not good though and I'd agree that this is a problem that needs urgent address from leaders, many of them heartland towns. But to blame migrants for that, or the EU, and place this as a the main headline priority can't sit well with Labour values. As ever, Labour sees the problem/solution as finding ways to redistribe wealth and immigration isn't a priority in that as it is for many heartland voters. Its a huge disconnect, but I think the real change in that relationship in recent years has been much more down to a new preoccupation of heartlands voters rather than changes in Labour. Miliband would have felt the same. Even John Smith would. Its not just Blair. I can't think of any new Labour leadership (not in difficult position of being a heartlands mp anyway) who would change the Labour outlook on internationalism. Its not that Labour have bolted as a horse, but many heartlands voters have. As a Rotherham lad, this chokes me. I'd like the blame for social ills to be where it belongs.

Thanks for good post though

[ragingpup]

And what about the 10 billion plus they owe us from investments etc that profits have been made from and our share of rebates etc. Because we have continued to pay while we have been in the EU since the brexit vote I think you will find that if any money is owed at the moment it will be in our favour.

I know you'll say I'm being Kerrish again, but where do you get the 10 billion investment figure from? I agree that the amount of money we 'owe' the EU has diminished since our inability to agree a compromise deal with the EU, and its fair to say that in December 2020,we will owe them nothing if we still haven't left. I'm sure the EU would agree with that.

[BigLadonOS]

I know you'll say I'm being Kerrish again, but where do you get the 10 billion investment figure from? I agree that the amount of money we 'owe' the EU has diminished since our inability to agree a compromise deal with the EU, and its fair to say that in December 2020,we will owe them nothing if we still haven't left. I'm sure the EU would agree with that.

We are committing to paying the amounts committed to before the end of 2020 but for which cash will be paid in later years. HM Treasury estimates that the UK will make around 60% of settlement payments by the end of 2021 leaving 40% to pay. Indeed as regards pensions and some other matters one Government estimate is that we will be paying small amounts up to 2064!

The EU also demands that the UK will no longer participate in the Galileo satellite system “for security reasons” even though the UK has already contributed 1.4bn Euros to the project and the EU wants to continue to benefit from UK intelligence and security information after we leave.

In other words the EU wants to keep the UK’s historic capital contributions but demand payments into the budget when we do not benefit.

Commitments on current and capital accounts should be treated the same. In other words if the UK has to pay for the “benefits” of the EU even after we have left, the EU must pay for the benefits the UK paid for and which they will continue to benefit from in the future – in other words our capital contribution.

Indeed the EU accepts this principle by accepting that the UK will receive (eventually) a re-payment of its subscribed capital to the European Investment Bank. In corporate affairs when an investor or owner leaves he can sell his shares and thus get back his share of the capital he has contributed to.

So what are the capital assets of the EU to which the UK has contributed over the last 46 years? As at 31st December 2017 there are on the European Union’s balance sheet the following capital assets to which the UK could claim it has contributed by its budget contributions over 46 years:

Property plant and equipment 10,745m
Investments 581m
Financial Assets 59,980m

Total 71.306 billion Euros

Our share of that because we are the 2nd biggest investor in the EU economy would be 10.3 billion euros.

That was in 2017 but after the contribution we have continued to make to date it would be bigger than the 10.3 billion euros at that time.

[animallittle3]

Hey animal. Was in the midst of responding to your earlier post on this issue a couple of days ago but Internet cut out and too pissed off to start again. So try to keep it brief. In short, I think you're right, there is a huge disconnect between the 'heartlands' and Labour. But I don't think this is a problem with labour, just a growing divergence between their values and the values of many of the heartland voters. In short, many of these voters, now in the thrall of Farage, and Johnson if he keeps the current tone, have developed values that Labour cannot, and should not, try to match. These voters have genuine reason to be angry, are rightly pissed off at a London centric political and economic system and have been shat on for decades. But they are unfortunately blaming this not in the economic system, and their leaders for the last 40 years of direction, but on immigration and the EU. Labour is an internationalist organisation, recognises the role that migrants play in or economy and services and on balance that they provide a net economic gain for the economy. That's not to say that migration has worked well in some areas where integration is not good though and I'd agree that this is a problem that needs urgent address from leaders, many of them heartland towns. But to blame migrants for that, or the EU, and place this as a the main headline priority can't sit well with Labour values. As ever, Labour sees the problem/solution as finding ways to redistribe wealth and immigration isn't a priority in that as it is for many heartland voters. Its a huge disconnect, but I think the real change in that relationship in recent years has been much more down to a new preoccupation of heartlands voters rather than changes in Labour. Miliband would have felt the same. Even John Smith would. Its not just Blair. I can't think of any new Labour leadership (not in difficult position of being a heartlands mp anyway) who would change the Labour outlook on internationalism. Its not that Labour have bolted as a horse, but many heartlands voters have. As a Rotherham lad, this chokes me. I'd like the blame for social ills to be where it belongs.

Thanks for good post though

The point I'm trying to make Raging is that when the so called experts analysis the UK today they think there's been a huge change around areas such as ours up here .

The truth is there hasn't , we've always felt this way about globalisation .

The traditional left saw it from day one in 1973 .

It's the left of today in influential positions who've changed .

[ragingpup]

The point I'm trying to make Raging is that when the so called experts analysis the UK today they think there's been a huge change around areas such as ours up here .

The truth is there hasn't , we've always felt this way about globalisation .

The traditional left saw it from day one in 1973 .

It's the left of today in influential positions who've changed .

Who are the experts that you think insist that there has been a huge change in areas such as Rotherham? i am agreeing with you that there is a big gap left over from the decimation of the former heartland industries, and that the people in those areas are angry about the relative economic downturn. I come from Ravenfield and my dad was a redundant steel worker who never recovered from his redundancy. I'm very familiar with the economic and cultural landscape of the heartland towns. I have Not sure who you mean by "we've always felt this way about globalisation"? Are you referring to the Tony Benn argument? In all my life of being brought up in South Yorkshire I can't recall one person saying that they were concerned about globalisation,in the way that Benn et all would argue. Or are you referring to immigration? It would be interesting to hear what Benn would think of the referendum and arguments put forward by vote leave, with the sometimes toxic anti immigration message. I can't believe he would side with vote leave as they became something very different to Labour values. I know he would object to ruthless employers exploiting the migrant worker, but im sure he'd be able to discern that this is but a small part of the freedom of movement issue. Depends on how much weight you place on this issue. But fundamentally, Labour will not go down the 'blame immigration' for our economic issues, quite simply as this isn't the cause of our economic issues. Leaving the EU won't make the slightest impact on ruthless employers exploiting migrants in my opinion. I think It's more like distraction to move us towards economic shock and exploitation of this by those who stand to gain from inevitable tax cuts/sale of assets in response.