OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[Trickytreesreds]

GP...you know better than that. To say that the Labour Party is ‘ultimately anti Semitic’ is ridiculous. There may well be anti semites within the Labour Party and there are almost certainly members of the Labour Party who are opposed to the Israeli stance on Palestine, but to describe the Labour Party as ‘ultimately anti Semitic’ makes about as much sense as describing all football supporters as hooligans.

Tricky...in what way is the EU - for all its faults - trying to create a united Europe in any way comparable with Hitler and the Nazis attempting a military invasion of Europe and the demonisation and ultimate destruction of one particular race/creed of people?
Seems to me your paranoia and disregard for the truth knows no bounds.

I knew you'd ive in.

My jibe was on the same level as Swales. He has just called Boris J and his party in the same as Hitlers climb to power. I get what he means, but is it really?

I can say the same of the EU. The Nazi's slowly eroded away the class/democratic/political decision making inside Germany. Until one party made all the rules and policy of that nation. The EU is doing exactly the same. Now I'm not being as paranoia induced as you are implying. The similarities are there. In no way am I suggesting the EU is about to go on the rampage across the world either.

Swale just compared our PM with Hitler. I see his point.
I compared the EU with Hitlers nazi party.
The simularities are there, but you choose to ignore one, yet berate the other.

[Geoff Parkstone]

Both led by Germans rA, although the EU is more subtle, its the sort of stealth invasion that is more difficult to resist. Making us think we want to become part of the greater Germany, oops I mean EU, so we fall into line without wasting money on bullets, bombs and tanks.

Only history will tell whether the greater EU will then turn on particular sectors of itself, but the chances are high that they will. In USA years of slavery and oppression of the blacks, in USSR demonisation of too many sub cultures to name, in China /( and Cambodia - same philosophy) oppression of intellectuals: just to look at the superpowers that the EU seeks to become one of. Who will be their scapegoat? Probably us if we ultimately stay - those evil Brits who tried to tear us apart

[ramAnag]

I knew you'd ive in.

My jibe was on the same level as Swales. He has just called Boris J and his party in the same as Hitlers climb to power. I get what he means, but is it really?

I can say the same of the EU. The Nazi's slowly eroded away the class/democratic/political decision making inside Germany. Until one party made all the rules and policy of that nation. The EU is doing exactly the same. Now I'm not being as paranoia induced as you are implying. The similarities are there. In no way am I suggesting the EU is about to go on the rampage across the world either.

Swale just compared our PM with Hitler. I see his point.
I compared the EU with Hitlers nazi party.
The simularities are there, but you choose to ignore one, yet berate the other.

You made a point...a daft one imo...I responded.
The point being raised is probably about dictatorship. Hitler was a dictator...by suspending Parliament in order to get his own way Johnson is acting like a dictator...and I have a degree of sympathy with your belief that the EU is insufficiently democratic which can be confused with dictatorship.
Beyond that there is no comparison to be made between the Nazis, either in terms of aims or method, and the EU...again imo.

So many ifs, assumptions and coincidences GP.

[Geoff Parkstone]

"So many ifs, assumptions and coincidences GP...."

Sometimes there are so many coincidences that they cease to be coincidences but rather realities. Can you really claim that oppression of, discrimination against and at the extreme, elimination of minorities are not a recurring feature of "superpowers/superstates"?

The three I mentioned are current - but the Romans weren't averse to wiping out opposition, particularly at a religious level etc, eg Christianity; the British Empire was hardly a tolerant one, particularly in East Africa.

You can hide behind your belief that these are all coincidences if you will, but I'm not fooled. Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely, as Emerich Edward Dalberg Acton, first Baron Acton would say:

...........coincidentally, Acton is very close to / historically part of Brentford, where we are playing on Saturday. Maybe you are right after all

[Trickytreesreds]

Damned right Geoff.

Depends on the person and their rose tinted glasses.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uB4o5n2EGyA

[swaledale]

Both led by Germans rA, although the EU is more subtle, its the sort of stealth invasion that is more difficult to resist. Making us think we want to become part of the greater Germany, oops I mean EU, so we fall into line without wasting money on bullets, bombs and tanks.

Only history will tell whether the greater EU will then turn on particular sectors of itself, but the chances are high that they will. In USA years of slavery and oppression of the blacks, in USSR demonisation of too many sub cultures to name, in China /( and Cambodia - same philosophy) oppression of intellectuals: just to look at the superpowers that the EU seeks to become one of. Who will be their scapegoat? Probably us if we ultimately stay - those evil Brits who tried to tear us apart

The Eu will change, evolve or even self destruct, thats the cycle of life, its clear that at the moment, society's memory re the conflicts of ideology and geopolitics that covered the years of the first and second world wars is fading, which gives opportunistic far right (and those on the far left for that matter) to present their simplistic ideologies as being the solution to current woes, such as they might be.

We have had decades of relative peace in western europe, that historically is down to the EU, because disputes and petty political in fighting is conducted in its corridors and meeting rooms, rather than on the battle field, one may argue the end result is the same in terms of power and influence, (I'd say that argument doesn't stand up but hey its a point of view) but at least the process hasn't seen millions of people killed and millions more lives shattered.

Johnson is not the problem, he is the patsy being used by undemocratic far right zealots to achieve what has been an agenda for over a decade, taking advantage of the general populations apathy and desire for simplistic solutions.

[Geoff Parkstone]

Wow, a peaceable and conciliatory post, Swale. Well thought out and expressed.

Whilst I do not doubt that the EU has been instrumental in aiding peace in western europe since 1945, I suspect they are but a bit player in that process. They could/did not prevent civil wars as Yugoslavia broke up, nor the in fighting that led to Czech and Slovak separation in the wake of the collapse of the Soviet Union.

I'm not saying that they could have stopped that - those current member states weren't in the EU then, but the point is that the fighting still went on in Europe, just not in the western european arena.

Equally the global conflicts now have moved to the Middle east, rather than western europe because of oil needs, oops, no I mean naughty Muslims kicking off against each other and not us/european meddling. Western Europe is no longer a global battlefield because it has ceased to be as important as it was 75 years ago. There's oil out there to fight about, not the Alsace Lorraine issue or Polish sovereignty.

The EU have hardly presented a united front when europe does become embroiled in conflict elsewhere. Where was the Italian navy during the Falklands conflict, where were all the other european nations in the various Syrian/Iraqi/Iranian/Kuwait conflicts of the past 35 years? Sure they have made sure that no warfare is conducted in their own back yards, avoided belgium being flattened again etc, but they have been far from unified when it comes to conflict elsewhere: they have just taken their own views, rather than a community one.

Yet they want one army etc? Given the collective inability to agree on a collective view as to conflict response outside their back yard, I doubt that army would ever be called to arms, or could even end up fighting itself if the French want (a) and the Germans (b)!

So, a force for peace, or a force for NIMBY?

[ramAnag]

"So many ifs, assumptions and coincidences GP...."

Sometimes there are so many coincidences that they cease to be coincidences but rather realities. Can you really claim that oppression of, discrimination against and at the extreme, elimination of minorities are not a recurring feature of "superpowers/superstates"?

The three I mentioned are current - but the Romans weren't averse to wiping out opposition, particularly at a religious level etc, eg Christianity; the British Empire was hardly a tolerant one, particularly in East Africa.

You can hide behind your belief that these are all coincidences if you will, but I'm not fooled. Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely, as Emerich Edward Dalberg Acton, first Baron Acton would say:

...........coincidentally, Acton is very close to / historically part of Brentford, where we are playing on Saturday. Maybe you are right after all

That’s not what I’m trying to claim at all, Parky...and of course you have a point about the way ‘superpowers/states/empires’ have behaved in the past, but when was the last time the EU behaved in that way or has shown any inclination to?

Typical Leavers seem more concerned about them ‘bullying’ us about the shape of bananas than ‘wiping out opposition’ and if there are to be a collection of six or more such ‘superpowers’ in the future I fancy our chances more being part of one with our geographical neighbours than going it alone as Little - ever more divided - Britain.

Citing the EU’s failure to get involved in the Falklands War appears to me a particularly poor example. I’d have been seriously concerned if the EU had ever got involved in Thatcher’s war of convenience and expediency.

Interesting how quiet we were, and largely remain, in comparison over Hongkong...but then we’re not quite so tough when the ‘big boys’ come knocking are we?

[Trickytreesreds]

That’s not what I’m trying to claim at all, Parky...and of course you have a point about the way ‘superpowers/states/empires’ have behaved in the past, but when was the last time the EU behaved in that way or has shown any inclination to?

Typical Leavers seem more concerned about them ‘bullying’ us about the shape of bananas than ‘wiping out opposition’ and if there are to be a collection of six or more such ‘superpowers’ in the future I fancy our chances more being part of one with our geographical neighbours than going it alone as Little - ever more divided - Britain.

Citing the EU’s failure to get involved in the Falklands War appears to me a particularly poor example. I’d have been seriously concerned if the EU had ever got involved in Thatcher’s war of convenience and expediency.

Interesting how quiet we were, and largely remain, in comparison over Hongkong...but then we’re not quite so tough when the ‘big boys’ come knocking are we?

Sorry RA, but in large, that is all but bollox.

Thatchers war as you call it. Exactly who invaded who? Exactly who's sovereign (there's that word again) territory was violated?
Parko missed the bit out, where the EU didn't help? Didn't exactly stop the French helping the opposition did it? Until the yanks threatened them.

As for Hong Kong, who did it belong to?
We had it under lease, that was all. We have/had no rights on the way that region is run, since that lease expired.
Even if it hadn't, so do you believe your European mates would help?
I don't.

[ramAnag]

Sorry RA, but in large, that is all but bollox.

Thatchers war as you call it. Exactly who invaded who? Exactly who's sovereign (there's that word again) territory was violated?
Parko missed the bit out, where the EU didn't help? Didn't exactly stop the French helping the opposition did it? Until the yanks threatened them.

As for Hong Kong, who did it belong to?
We had it under lease, that was all. We have/had no rights on the way that region is run, since that lease expired.
Even if it hadn't, so do you believe your European mates would help?
I don't.

C’mon Tricky...virtually everyone accepts that the Falklands War was manufactured to bolster the popularity of a fading and increasingly out of favour PM.
It was populism at work again...’Britain rules the waves, never shall be slaves’ and all that bollux.
It was the Tories, and Thatcher in particular, manufacturing a situation to court popularity just as Brexit appeals to the populist Little Britain mentality, only in 1982 all too many of our unfortunate servicemen paid with their lives or life changing injuries at least.

You’re right of course in that Argentina acted badly and were not blameless but the whole thing was avoidable except that a ‘nice’ convenient little war against an infinitely weaker ‘enemy’ suited the Tory cause at the time and yes, I know, the Hong Kong situation is different but the comparative lack of sabre rattling and the rapidity with which we left once big old China demanded it was in very marked contrast to how we ‘stood up’ to those pesky little Argies.

Anyway, unbelievably it’s thirty seven years ago now, let’s move on.