O/T Democracy

[Exiletyke]

I respect your points animal, but do you not worry at all that the Tory right, the historical Eurosceptics, simply want to be able to break from the EU in order to cut workers conditions, consumer standards and environmental policies that we are obliged to follow? If not, in your opinion, why are these people so obsessed with breaking free from the EU?

And, in your opinion, what are the fundamental things that EU restrictions on us are that you want to get rid of, and how will it benefit us everyday Joes?

How about the fundamental area of paying in about £13 billion p.a & getting about £4 billion back & we were subjected to Camereon's/Osborne's austerity cuts [well some were]
How's that grab you as fundamental?

Workers conditions, consumer standards ?? what planet are you on
I suspect that your conditions in your protected college bubble are not under real threat
& please explain consumer standards [assume you're not referring to consumer rights which you may have noticed companies increasingly circumvent]

[MillerBill]

You can bet your bottom dollar that Macron would change his mind at the last minute and give us more delay time.When the meter is ticking over, all the time @ 1.1 billion cost to us,they'll gladly give us more "damage to business time".These anti democratic pathetic parliamentary plotting pillocks will today deny us having an election this next month.The labour party is shooting itself in the foot and losing support rapidly with all this obstruction to delivering a clean Brexit.

[BigLadonOS]

I understand what he said at the time but you are the first person I have come across, anywhere that has taken Cameron's attempt to negotiate an improved deal, as "the negotiation" itself. That completely ignores the fact that the EU, when they spoke to Cameron, had no idea that we were going to vote to leave the EU, and upon doing so, actually need to re-negotiate a whole new deal. It was this 're-negotiation' that is the deal that the rest of the country have been talking about as "the deal".

Except you

That is so funny it is unreal. The whole premise of the referendum in the first place came about because of those negotiations and everyone I talked to about the referendum and the way they would vote said that they were disgusted at how the EU had treated Cameron over a new deal. Nobody was talking about a deal other than the Cameron deal before the referendum was announced.

[BigLadonOS]

I respect your points animal, but do you not worry at all that the Tory right, the historical Eurosceptics, simply want to be able to break from the EU in order to cut workers conditions, consumer standards and environmental policies that we are obliged to follow? If not, in your opinion, why are these people so obsessed with breaking free from the EU?

And, in your opinion, what are the fundamental things that EU restrictions on us are that you want to get rid of, and how will it benefit us everyday Joes?

I hate to bring this to your attention yet again pup but did you not understand that 17.4 million people voted to get out of the EU so I am afraid that your point of (And I quote) "in your opinion, why are these people so obsessed with breaking free from the EU?"

I'm sure that one day you will grow up and learn to listen more.

[great_fire]

Absolute b@llax biglad .

The very idea of grammar schools is to seperate the bright from the rest at an early age and give them a huge advantage from 11 years old .

Attitudes such as yours and Fire also fails to understand that not everyone starts from the same position in life .

The bright from any background though.

House of Commons has only 6% of MPs from a working-class background now.

That's why it's full of middle-class remainers.

[Exiletyke]

The bright from any background though.

House of Commons has only 6% of MPs from a working-class background now.

That's why it's full of middle-class remainers.

But it's how a nation nurtures & uses & takes advantage of that brightness that counts & we don't do well at it do we?

[ragingpup]

How about the fundamental area of paying in about £13 billion p.a & getting about £4 billion back & we were subjected to Camereon's/Osborne's austerity cuts [well some were]
How's that grab you as fundamental?

Workers conditions, consumer standards ?? what planet are you on
I suspect that your conditions in your protected college bubble are not under real threat
& please explain consumer standards [assume you're not referring to consumer rights which you may have noticed companies increasingly circumvent]

By consumer standards, I’m referring to minimum EU health and safety standards, legislation that we abide by to protect consumers.
By worker’s conditions/rights I’m referring to rights that the EU has introduced that help protect workers rights: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a7531366.html

Of course, some employers individually will circumvent any standards that are laid down, including exploiting migrant workers. That are breaking these protections and the law. But I don’t think it’s a good idea to do away with the law, just because some people persist in breaking it? Is it?

My question was for animal as he seems to come from a cogent left wing perspective on this, and I would welcome his views on why it might benefit us to move away from these minimum standards that we should aim for, and the worrying thought that the Eurosceptics have the wish to tear up these pesky standards as the central intention for their long standing anti-EU stance.

[ragingpup]

I hate to bring this to your attention yet again pup but did you not understand that 17.4 million people voted to get out of the EU so I am afraid that your point of (And I quote) "in your opinion, why are these people so obsessed with breaking free from the EU?"

I'm sure that one day you will grow up and learn to listen more.

So you think, hand on heart, that "these obsessed people" (to which let's be clear I was referring to the long standing euro-sceptics in the Tory party, not leave voters) are only interested in breaking away from the EU simply because 17.4 million voted for it?

Really? Why were they obsessed with it in when Major referred to them as "*******s" back in the 90s?

I'm just trying to get behind the bottom line as to why this ruling class of people are so obsessed with it. What's in it for them? And more importantly, people behind them that they represent?

[Stovicmiller]

By consumer standards, I’m referring to minimum EU health and safety standards, legislation that we abide by to protect consumers.
By worker’s conditions/rights I’m referring to rights that the EU has introduced that help protect workers rights: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a7531366.html

Of course, some employers individually will circumvent any standards that are laid down, including exploiting migrant workers. That are breaking these protections and the law. But I don’t think it’s a good idea to do away with the law, just because some people persist in breaking it? Is it?

My question was for animal as he seems to come from a cogent left wing perspective on this, and I would welcome his views on why it might benefit us to move away from these minimum standards that we should aim for, and the worrying thought that the Eurosceptics have the wish to tear up these pesky standards as the central intention for their long standing anti-EU stance.

I'm sure you will tell me if I'm missing something here but why do we need to be in the EU to protect workers rights minimum health and safety standards surely a British government could bring in legislation for these things,like a future Labour government.

[ragingpup]

I'm sure you will tell me if I'm missing something here but why do we need to be in the EU to protect workers rights minimum health and safety standards surely a British government could bring in legislation for these things,like a future Labour government.

I agree with you Stovic. I broadly agree with Animal (and others on here at times) that the EU are a neo liberal organisation that puts the interests of corporations first. If it was guaranteed that Labour would be in power under the terms of the last manifesto I would be quite relaxed on the idea of leaving the EU. But the problems are:

1. The Conservatives are the ones that have pushed this agenda which I think is to erode the minimum rights and protections that we must abide by as part of the EU. I think that the EU are right to be concerned that we are intending to undercut them in competition with world trade, by lowering our costs (pesky rights and protections). My concern is that if we leave without a deal (that would still retain many of these rights and protections) then we will see more wholesale cutting of these R&P encouraged by the government

2. Even if we leave with no deal, we would inevitably have to start again and re-negotiate a new trade deal with the EU. Therefore these same protections and rights would inevitably be on the agenda again and we have to start the whole 'dance' again from scratch. That is having experienced whatever fall out from the no deal Brexit.

But I agree, that I would be quite relaxed about leaving the EU under labour apart from the short term financial hit, simply as I trust them (as much as any politician can be trusted!) them not to cut the minimum standards.