O/T Democracy

[BigLadonOS]

Exactly GF. Which is why I think anyone who actually bothers to read it need to open their mind to its content and not what the 2 great minds have done to dismiss it as anti EU.

Thatcher was a neoliberal who created the Single European Act (that laid the foundation for the Single Market) to achieve that very end. There are parts of the leave campaign (ERG and, I fear, those led by Johnson) who who want us to leave to further their neoliberal ambition.

Why the **** would a neoliberal want to put vast amounts of money in to the NHS? Sometimes I wonder how your mind works!

I see that you have totally ignored My question to you on the last page but no worries because I did not expect you to answer something you have no clue about but yet you like to spout your mouth off! You are nothing but an attention seeker trying to make yourself look smarter than you actually are. Fake intelligence eh mate.

[rolymiller]

Oh dear Boris in trouble with the law. Geddim banged up the basturd!

[Exiletyke]

Yes I have. I did it for 3 summers in Wakefield whilst I was a student. It was pretty awful and in some cases not entirely lawful. As I've said many times before, employers break the law and will continue to do so. Lack of enforcement is as much down to political will in the UK as it is in the EU.

So are you advocating that the UK should do away with these protections? If so, why?

(It was for animal as it was with him I was discussing it but others may be interested and were welcome to respond if they wish. I just know what your response was going to be, but I was rather surprised you seem to be decrying the writer for actually expressing an opinion, as if that is different somehow to what you are doing.)

You really are confused aren't you
Try reading what I posted not what you think I have posted
I have no issue with anyone expressing an opinion
But I refer you once again to the author's first paragraph where he espouses trashing the economy, triggering shortages of food and medicine
Not said as opinion but stated as fact
Do you now see what I mean?

[animallittle3]

FAO Animal. This bloke pretty much sums up what I've been clumsily saying about arch neoliberal Brexiteers motives for No Deal:

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...-neoliberalism

So what your suggesting and in relation to the UK leaving the EU is that the ERG and its band of supporters which include Hedge Fund managers and various other extremely wealthy and powerful people are the bad Neoliberals and the EU are the good Neoliberals .

It bit like some historians who judge Albert Speer as the good Nazi when in reality he was nothing of the sort and was fully up to date with Nazi ideology and " The Final Solution " as much as Himmler was .

Let me make my position perfectly clear I don't do softer versions of Neoliberalism and to take refuge behind a softer version and sell out turns my stomach nearly as much as the deputy leader of the Labour Party does Tom Watson .

In fact the vast majority of the PLP and its membership does on the subject of Brexit .

I perfectly understand what Mogg and his collection of jack booted henchmens motives are and to be quite honest their intentions are possibly so extreme I'm amazed anyone actually takes them serious , true they've hijacked the government but only because the bloody Labour Party gave them a helping hand .

If May's deal had gone through as shyte as it was we'd have left the EU already and next on the list would be the Tory government at the next GE , I'd suggest the Labour Party may have come away from that with rather more credibility instead of the shyte fest it is today .

A Labour Party worth its salt would have campaigned robustly to leave the EU leaving them only to kick the tories out of government and had a blank canvas to build a better and more equal UK from that point on .

Instead they hide like the little yellow bellied w@nkers they are behind the giant corporations who have the EU by the b@llax .

The real people in the past who contributed their working lives to improving workers rights and decent pay wouldn't have given the EU the time of day .

An acceptance of Neoliberalism because a group tout a harsher one , not in this life matey and they can shove their European Federal State up their @ss whilst we are at it .

[animallittle3]

These laws don't protect workers?

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a7531366.html

Why would you want to see them abolished?

Dear me and the PLP and its members are happy to accept those opt out crumbs and more disturbingly the trade unions ?

[great_fire]

It's looking like Boris will be left with no other option but to resign, let the opposition try to make a deal with the EU which they'll then campaign against, what a farce.

Those cynical people who said "they'll never let us leave" are looking like they're right. The country with "the mother of all parliament" actually only has an illusion of democracy.

[WanChaiMiller]

So I assume that anyone who voted to remain in your mind know exactly what will happen if we were to remain! Please enlighten me WCM to what will happen if we did stay?

Do not even try to back down on this request because if you do not answer this question it will clearly show that you really have no clue either. WCM you are all mouth as usual.

I understand what you are getting at that we have no way of knowing what the future holds in terms of economic cycles whether in or out of the EU and, if we remain in the EU, its future reforms.

If we stay in the EU we broadly understand the boundaries of our legal framework and know our trading relationships globally. Its been pretty stable the past 40 years and likely to be the same going (this is not an argument to remain btw - just how I see it).

However, when we leave we do not know what Britain will become.

At one end of the spectrum people see leaving as giving Britain the chance to become more regulated centre left ish politically - tightening up employment laws and bigger state with spending on NHS and education (remember the bus).

At the other end of the spectrum there is the real prospect of Britain becoming totally deregulated (Merkel made a speech yesterday of the dangers to the EU of a Singapore style state operating on its borders).

The direction we shift will be totally dependant on who holds power. And again at one end of the political spectrum there is Corbyn and his Momentum cronies, and, at the other end,* the polar opposite, Johnson and his ERG cronies with Farage lurking in the wings.

Animal has just said we should conceed the ground to the right now to get us out of the EU then mount a campaign to regain our country politically (rebirth of the unions and class war). I bet he didnt see that when he voted in 2016.

Lets be honest, when most people voted leave they thought things would roll along much the same (ok we'd get a bit of an economic dip then all would be fine) with the only real change being we could regulate immigration.

[Exiletyke]

How on earth do you know what most people thought?
But I'll tell you what I think & it's that you didn't write the above post[well at least not on your own]
I digress,what does it matter why people voted,? they voted to leave
BTW it's good to see the end of the class war isn't it?

[ragingpup]

So what your suggesting and in relation to the UK leaving the EU is that the ERG and its band of supporters which include Hedge Fund managers and various other extremely wealthy and powerful people are the bad Neoliberals and the EU are the good Neoliberals .

It bit like some historians who judge Albert Speer as the good Nazi when in reality he was nothing of the sort and was fully up to date with Nazi ideology and " The Final Solution " as much as Himmler was .

Let me make my position perfectly clear I don't do softer versions of Neoliberalism and to take refuge behind a softer version and sell out turns my stomach nearly as much as the deputy leader of the Labour Party does Tom Watson .

In fact the vast majority of the PLP and its membership does on the subject of Brexit .

I perfectly understand what Mogg and his collection of jack booted henchmens motives are and to be quite honest their intentions are possibly so extreme I'm amazed anyone actually takes them serious , true they've hijacked the government but only because the bloody Labour Party gave them a helping hand .

If May's deal had gone through as shyte as it was we'd have left the EU already and next on the list would be the Tory government at the next GE , I'd suggest the Labour Party may have come away from that with rather more credibility instead of the shyte fest it is today .

A Labour Party worth its salt would have campaigned robustly to leave the EU leaving them only to kick the tories out of government and had a blank canvas to build a better and more equal UK from that point on .

Instead they hide like the little yellow bellied w@nkers they are behind the giant corporations who have the EU by the b@llax .

The real people in the past who contributed their working lives to improving workers rights and decent pay wouldn't have given the EU the time of day .

An acceptance of Neoliberalism because a group tout a harsher one , not in this life matey and they can shove their European Federal State up their @ss whilst we are at it .

You make interesting points animal. And I broadly agree with much (such as Labour supporting a compromise deal, but think that this might still happen in coming weeks) but please let me pick up your point on not doing ‘softer’ versions of neo-liberalism. By this are you saying that you want to move towards a completely different economic structure altogether or are you separating neo liberalism from capitalism? I’m wondering if you go beyond the idea of a social democracy, where a market economy is used to generate wealth under a more regulated state control (because wouldn’t we say that this is still neo liberalism?) into a communist/rigorous Marxist economic model? Maybe I’m just confusing neo-liberalism and capitalism here!

[ragingpup]

Dear me and the PLP and its members are happy to accept those opt out crumbs and more disturbingly the trade unions ?

But there is clear evidence that the developing EU worker’s standards have improved the working conditions of UK workers since they were introduced. The number of workers working more than 48 hours per week was significantly reduced following the working time directive.

The TUC give a reasonable discussion of those gained rights here:
https://www.tuc.org.uk/sites/default...20the%20EU.pdf

I hear you that these can be seen as ‘crumbs’ compared to what we should be setting, particularly if we’re going to increase our awful productivity record. But I think personally that a more balanced discussion on this should I think identify that we have gained significant improvement from the EU from what we had before, should acknowledge that a No Deal accompanied by more conservative control under present management is a huge risk to these rights as they are whilst encouraging Labour to look towards improvement on them if they gain power.