O/T Democracy

[KerrAvon]

Ah Mr Kerr. Read your critique of Socialism now tell me why Capitalism does work. I'm all ears. How does capitalism work for the homeless, jobless, oppressed, poor. Just a thought... Give me some examples...

Indeed could it nor be argued that because there are people who are impoverished etc in the world through no fault of their own that capitalism does not work. No, hang on, I will take that back it does for a few...

I’m not sure that my critique of Socialism has much value when compared with the judgement upon it made by the millions who streamed out of the Socialism ravaged economies of Eastern European countries or who are abandoning Venezuela by the thousands every day. Then again, as someone far more cleaver than me once said: “We learn from history that we do not learn from history.”

Capitalism works because it can reward individual endeavour and innovation as opposed to supressing the same. Market forces drive endeavour, efficiency and innovation at a corporate level, which is why the East Germans got Trabants, whilst Germans in the West got BMWs.

Your question about how Capitalism works for the homeless, jobless, oppressed and poor suggests that you don’t understand the issue. Capitalism is a system of economic organisation that history demonstrates works for the reasons that I have set out above. How the wealth created by the system is distributed is largely a matter for government. Towards one end of the spectrum you have the (Capitalist) Scandinavian countries that have large states and at the other end you have the US, which is focused upon having a much lower level of state intervention. Would the Scandinavians and Americans be better off in Socialist states? Ask a Venezuelan.

If you don’t create wealth, you can’t distribute it.

There are plenty of people who are impoverished in the world due to an unequal distribution of wealth, but before you start throwing stones at Capitalism, take a good look at the glass house that you are standing in. You could start by looking at your two cars or the meat in your fridge – they are there courtesy of the Capitalist economy in which you have the good fortune to live. If you want to actually do something instead of pontificating, why don’t you sell one of your cars (particularly as you told us that you barely use one) and give the proceeds to a good cause:

https://donate.unhcr.org/gb/venezuel...E&gclsrc=aw.ds

[ragingpup]

I’m not sure that my critique of Socialism has much value when compared with the judgement upon it made by the millions who streamed out of the Socialism ravaged economies of Eastern European countries or who are abandoning Venezuela by the thousands every day. Then again, as someone far more cleaver than me once said: “We learn from history that we do not learn from history.”

Capitalism works because it can reward individual endeavour and innovation as opposed to supressing the same. Market forces drive endeavour, efficiency and innovation at a corporate level, which is why the East Germans got Trabants, whilst Germans in the West got BMWs.

Your question about how Capitalism works for the homeless, jobless, oppressed and poor suggests that you don’t understand the issue. Capitalism is a system of economic organisation that history demonstrates works for the reasons that I have set out above. How the wealth created by the system is distributed is largely a matter for government. Towards one end of the spectrum you have the (Capitalist) Scandinavian countries that have large states and at the other end you have the US, which is focused upon having a much lower level of state intervention. Would the Scandinavians and Americans be better off in Socialist states? Ask a Venezuelan.

If you don’t create wealth, you can’t distribute it.

There are plenty of people who are impoverished in the world due to an unequal distribution of wealth, but before you start throwing stones at Capitalism, take a good look at the glass house that you are standing in. You could start by looking at your two cars or the meat in your fridge – they are there courtesy of the Capitalist economy in which you have the good fortune to live. If you want to actually do something instead of pontificating, why don’t you sell one of your cars (particularly as you told us that you barely use one) and give the proceeds to a good cause:

https://donate.unhcr.org/gb/venezuel...E&gclsrc=aw.ds

This is all well and good but is anyone on here suggesting pure socialism or economic systems along the lines of East Germany and Venezuela?

Personally, as I've always said, I'm all for Denmark style social democracy - a heavy state presence with all paying in higher taxes progressively for better quality public services and less focus on cut throat capitalism 80 for 2 litres of milk etc.

Sorry but the constant references to Venezuela and East Germany just sounds like scare mongering to keep things exactly as they are. I take your point about Labour looking at securing the workforce a % stake in company profits and whilst there is vagueness about what extent goes to the state if it is set up to encourage worker productivity, then I think it's worth putting options such as this forward to address low productivity.

I'm interested if other lefties on here would be looking beyond social democracies, into more pure state ownership models? Is anyone suggesting that? If they aren't, constant referral to Venezuela etc doesn't seem very relevant? Corbyn may well have wished them well in their revolution days, looked at that people's revolution under Chevez as inspirational but their economic circumstances are so specific they don't bear any relation to where we are, nor where we would like to head. Makes a good scare story to keep our current economic model exactly as it is though, if you feel that the current one is working for you and the world you see around you.

[Exiletyke]

This is all well and good but is anyone on here suggesting pure socialism or economic systems along the lines of East Germany and Venezuela?

Personally, as I've always said, I'm all for Denmark style social democracy - a heavy state presence with all paying in higher taxes progressively for better quality public services and less focus on cut throat capitalism 80 for 2 litres of milk etc.

Sorry but the constant references to Venezuela and East Germany just sounds like scare mongering to keep things exactly as they are. I take your point about Labour looking at securing the workforce a % stake in company profits and whilst there is vagueness about what extent goes to the state if it is set up to encourage worker productivity, then I think it's worth putting options such as this forward to address low productivity.

I'm interested if other lefties on here would be looking beyond social democracies, into more pure state ownership models? Is anyone suggesting that? If they aren't, constant referral to Venezuela etc doesn't seem very relevant? Corbyn may well have wished them well in their revolution days, looked at that people's revolution under Chevez as inspirational but their economic circumstances are so specific they don't bear any relation to where we are, nor where we would like to head. Makes a good scare story to keep our current economic model exactly as it is though, if you feel that the current one is working for you and the world you see around you.

Good points rp

[KerrAvon]

This is all well and good but is anyone on here suggesting pure socialism or economic systems along the lines of East Germany and Venezuela?

Personally, as I've always said, I'm all for Denmark style social democracy - a heavy state presence with all paying in higher taxes progressively for better quality public services and less focus on cut throat capitalism 80 for 2 litres of milk etc.

Sorry but the constant references to Venezuela and East Germany just sounds like scare mongering to keep things exactly as they are. I take your point about Labour looking at securing the workforce a % stake in company profits and whilst there is vagueness about what extent goes to the state if it is set up to encourage worker productivity, then I think it's worth putting options such as this forward to address low productivity.

I'm interested if other lefties on here would be looking beyond social democracies, into more pure state ownership models? Is anyone suggesting that? If they aren't, constant referral to Venezuela etc doesn't seem very relevant? Corbyn may well have wished them well in their revolution days, looked at that people's revolution under Chevez as inspirational but their economic circumstances are so specific they don't bear any relation to where we are, nor where we would like to head. Makes a good scare story to keep our current economic model exactly as it is though, if you feel that the current one is working for you and the world you see around you.

These people used to mention Venezuela:

Jeremy Corbyn 2012 – Here you had the contrast between capitalism in crisis and socialism in action.

Jeremy Corbyn 2013 – In Chavez let’s remember someone who stood up, was counted, was inspiring, is inspiring, and in his death we will march on to that better, just, peaceful and hopeful world.

John McDonnell 2014 – Here you had the contrast between capitalism in crisis and socialism in action. (he got that right)

Diane Abbott 2012 – I think the importance of Venezuela is it shows another way is possible. Obviously it’s got oil wealth which makes a difference, but nonetheless, they’ve sought to invest in the country and they’ve sought to continue to fight poverty.

In fairness to McDonnell, by 2018 he had decided that Venezuela wasn’t really a Socialist state…

I don’t think Corbyn and his crew want to create a Venezuela in the UK. I simply think that they, like many politicians, have so much faith in their own abilities and so much faith in Socialism that they will be believe that they can be the first government anywhere to make a success out of the ideology, with oh so predictable results.

Labour looking at securing the workforce a % stake in company profits? Cobblers. It’s a part privatisation and tax grab and you know it.