O/T Democracy

[Exiletyke]

But is, hopefully, the end of Johnson's reign.

To be replaced by whom?

[MillerBill]

Gina Miller ,very wealthy millionaire business woman has tried every way to stop the democratic peoples vote.The fat cats are laughing all the way to Brussels.The remoaning voting lunatics cannot see this.

[BigLadonOS]

Can you imagine what is going to happen from here on in! If a party says in it's manifesto that it is going to do something if it gets elected and then does not do what it said it could now be made a null and void election because they lied. Fun and games galore after this ruling. The judges now have more power than the government. Amazing.

Those people who took this to the courts and those who have backed it are total ****ing idiots.

[rolymiller]

So are you saying that it is ok for parties to tell lies Big lad? Surely they should follow a manifesto which people voted for. Aint that democracy in action? By that argument, if the tories get in next election and say they are going to leave the EU but don't I can't imagine you would be chuffed and would be quite happy to have another election because they didn't honour their manifesto.

Lying is naughty. You are taught it at a very young age.

[great_fire]

Gina Miller ,very wealthy millionaire business woman has tried every way to stop the democratic peoples vote.The fat cats are laughing all the way to Brussels.The remoaning voting lunatics cannot see this.

Part of the Blair/ Soros axis, wealthy technocrats destroying democracy to increase their power and enrich themselves.

[great_fire]

I suspect that Boris, Jacob, and their friends in high places are the ones with enough money. Whoever thought that the members of the Supreme Court would be so anti establishment? Every one of them, without exception.

New Labour appointments.

One of them is a "leading Blair ally" who decided there should be no enquiry into the Iraq war, totally corrupt.

[BigLadonOS]

So are you saying that it is ok for parties to tell lies Big lad? Surely they should follow a manifesto which people voted for. Aint that democracy in action? By that argument, if the tories get in next election and say they are going to leave the EU but don't I can't imagine you would be chuffed and would be quite happy to have another election because they didn't honour their manifesto.

Lying is naughty. You are taught it at a very young age.

I am saying that any party that does not carry out 100% of its manifesto (which no party of any persuasion as ever done) would now be able to be brought down by law. The fact that a government may change its mind on certain things once in power after finding out for instance that under current agreements they cannot do what they said they would do would by law be no excuse and therefore it would have broken the law and could be held responsible and have the result of that election made null and void.

If Labour win the election for example under Corbyn. He has said that he will take the steel works amongst others back to being a nationalised industry but is unable to do so because of EU laws then he could be ruled to have lied because he knew under EU aw that was not possible it would be bye bye labour party and a new GE its really that simple.

[mikemiller]

The Tory Party has been somewhat divided on EEC/EU since Britain joined. There seems to be a split now between generally pro-Remain "Big Business", the usual backers of the Tories, and much of the Tory Party itself. Labour should try to force a general election as soon as possible, and stand with the Lexit (Left Exit) manifesto, ie improving workers rights, undoing previous privatisation, improving public services, etc, and ditching the Blairite politicians, and in clear opposition to the Boris "free fall" strategy

[KerrAvon]

This is all well and good but is anyone on here suggesting pure socialism or economic systems along the lines of East Germany and Venezuela?

Personally, as I've always said, I'm all for Denmark style social democracy - a heavy state presence with all paying in higher taxes progressively for better quality public services and less focus on cut throat capitalism 80 for 2 litres of milk etc.

Sorry but the constant references to Venezuela and East Germany just sounds like scare mongering to keep things exactly as they are. I take your point about Labour looking at securing the workforce a % stake in company profits and whilst there is vagueness about what extent goes to the state if it is set up to encourage worker productivity, then I think it's worth putting options such as this forward to address low productivity.

I'm interested if other lefties on here would be looking beyond social democracies, into more pure state ownership models? Is anyone suggesting that? If they aren't, constant referral to Venezuela etc doesn't seem very relevant? Corbyn may well have wished them well in their revolution days, looked at that people's revolution under Chevez as inspirational but their economic circumstances are so specific they don't bear any relation to where we are, nor where we would like to head. Makes a good scare story to keep our current economic model exactly as it is though, if you feel that the current one is working for you and the world you see around you.

These people used to mention Venezuela:

Jeremy Corbyn 2012 – Here you had the contrast between capitalism in crisis and socialism in action.

Jeremy Corbyn 2013 – In Chavez let’s remember someone who stood up, was counted, was inspiring, is inspiring, and in his death we will march on to that better, just, peaceful and hopeful world.

John McDonnell 2014 – Here you had the contrast between capitalism in crisis and socialism in action. (he got that right)

Diane Abbott 2012 – I think the importance of Venezuela is it shows another way is possible. Obviously it’s got oil wealth which makes a difference, but nonetheless, they’ve sought to invest in the country and they’ve sought to continue to fight poverty.

In fairness to McDonnell, by 2018 he had decided that Venezuela wasn’t really a Socialist state…

I don’t think Corbyn and his crew want to create a Venezuela in the UK. I simply think that they, like many politicians, have so much faith in their own abilities and so much faith in Socialism that they will be believe that they can be the first government anywhere to make a success out of the ideology, with oh so predictable results.

Labour looking at securing the workforce a % stake in company profits? Cobblers. It’s a part privatisation and tax grab and you know it.

[KerrAvon]

Freedom of choice in education f you are rich, not if you are poor.
Mugabe never redistributed much of the wealth that was rightly taken away from the white minority ruling class - so why are you calling him a "socialist"

Roly has sufficient wealth to own two cars (even if he doesn’t really used one of them). Some people can’t afford one. Raging was off on his jollies a few weeks ago (Crete?), whereas some people can’t afford a holiday. Many on here will choose to spend money following Rotherham – a choice that will be beyond the financial clout of others.

Some people choose to use their hard earned to try to give their kids the best start they can by taking them out of a state education system that fails so many. Many of them will scrimp and save to do it. Labour want to deny that choice and seize the assets of private schools for ‘redistribution’. That’s why I mentioned the Socialist, Mugabe.

When you say that 'wealth that was rightly taken away from the white minority ruling class', I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you have forgotten about the murders, rapes and arsons that were used to enforce that.