BOJO. The end.

[sinkov]

BoJo is now dead to me. Once a person is cruel enough to mention a murdered Labour MP to score a political point you are finished. The lukewarm Labour MP's are now firmly behind Corbyn. BoJo is dead. A new day is dawning.

I stand to be corrected BT, but as far as I'm aware, it was Labour MP Tracy Brabin who first dragged the name of Jo Cox into the debate. Does this mean Brabin is now finished for you, or is it OK for Brabin to use murdered Labour MPs to score political points ?

[sinkov]

"The question is WHY did he completely shut Parliament down for five weeks? It had nothing to do with the conference season - this recess would have been voted through by Parliament as usual."

You need to keep on top of your brief 59, I told you on another post that I suspected Boris prorogued Parliament because Remoaners were intending to vote down the recess and keep parliament sitting. Clearly you were unaware of the reality of the situation. This is from the Huffington Post, it was reported quite widely, I'm surprised you missed it.

"Grieve also dismissed Downing Street’s claim that only four sitting days (when parliament is in session) would be lost: “There wouldn’t have been a conference recess because parliament has already made quite clear it would not vote for a conference recess this year because of the urgency of the situation. And he [Johnson] knew that very well.”

So no mystery about why he shut parliament down, it was for the reason I suggested, Remoaners and Bercow have been playing silly beggars with parliamentary conventions and procedures for months now, are you surprised that the government did the same ?

[army88]

Great idea Vintage. The Lib Dems have been pushing for a second referendum for over three years.

But to ask Parliament to put the full facts, with evidence, to the people is a forlorn hope.

It is clear that so many people are so entrenched in their views that they are unwilling to accept evidence and advise from any "expert".
If, as a result of putting out the pro's and con's of leaving/remaining, it is obvious that one course of action is vastly more preferable than the other, the other side will simply not accept it as good advice and simply call it "project fear" or "project Unicorn".

But without doubt, the people will decide in the end, be it a second vote or a General Election.
I just think that a General Election will produce another hung Parliament who will not be able to resolve it.

Second vote it is then- but this Parliament will never agree to holding one.

My only question to that is what will happen if it s still leave , let’s be totally honest since we started this debacle 3 years ago all we have done since is weaken our position, we haven’t got a deal nor will we get one as British politics to the rest of Europe must look like the puppet p—s take show in the 80s laughing at our politics.

My thing is 59 that it will never be a deal that suits say your party Liberal or Jezzas Labour so you and they and some conservatives will continue to not accept what it is.

I mean on what grounds do you think you can guarantee that you and your party will accept the will of the people on leave issues 2 nd referendum and here come the big bit HONOUR them.

I mean your almost saying now that we vote Thursday they count Friday and by Monday all the politicians who have kicked off will fully accept the decisions as a democracy and go back to representing their constituents or resign as they should do.

You can call me cynical 59 but after watching the last episodes across all parties, you believe that would happen , unless of course it meets every criteria that everyone wants in a remain.

It won’t happen - be honest you know it won’t happen because we all know politics isn’t happy about not getting what it wants instead of what the people want.

The British public are pull together people and I believe that Westminster / Parliament has over stepped the line this time and because they threw the teddy out and refused to do what was asked of them , The public will revolt I believe and justice will be done.

[1959_60]

Army, I presume you voted leave in 2016?

If so, were you partly persuaded by Boris and Farage in what they promised us? "A better deal than we have now, and we won't pay the EU any money" "The EU will be desperate to give us a good deal because the sell more to us than we sell to them" "It will be the easiest deal in history"
That is what we were promised.
I can honestly say that if I believed them I would have voted to leave. They were telling us that such a deal would greatly improve our countries lot - and I am all for that.

But now Boris and Farage have changed their minds. What they are offering us now is nothing like what they were selling us in 2016. THEY HAVE CHANGED THEIR MINDS.

If you were influenced by them in 2016 then don't you think you should be asked the question again, now you know the true position?
Perhaps you were not influenced by Boris and Farage's promises in 2016 but there will be plenty that were.
In these circumstances I truly believe that we should be allowed to confirm that we except the new offer or be given the chance to say that WE HAVE CHANGED OUR MINDS TOO.

You are right. Me and my party will always push for being as close to the EU as possible - it is in our DNA. Losing a vote will not change our core beliefs.
I well remember shortly after the vote had finished in 2016 Farage can on TV thinking remain had won. He told us that he had lost a battle but not the war and that the fight would go on. And I think that was totally OK by me. If he had lost I would not expect him to sit on his hands, he would have continued his campaign.

So if there is another referendum and the people confirm that they want to leave, then Leave we will. But the Lib Dems will continue to campaign as a pro European party. We will not become leavers overnight because of the result of a vote.

Like any other party we will fight a General Election on our beliefs over a wide range of issues. If we lose then we will not tear up these beliefs, and neither would any other party.

Simply, if you don't agree with us then don't vote for us. That's how democracy works.

[1959_60]

"The question is WHY did he completely shut Parliament down for five weeks? It had nothing to do with the conference season - this recess would have been voted through by Parliament as usual."

You need to keep on top of your brief 59, I told you on another post that I suspected Boris prorogued Parliament because Remoaners were intending to vote down the recess and keep parliament sitting. Clearly you were unaware of the reality of the situation. This is from the Huffington Post, it was reported quite widely, I'm surprised you missed it.

"Grieve also dismissed Downing Street’s claim that only four sitting days (when parliament is in session) would be lost: “There wouldn’t have been a conference recess because parliament has already made quite clear it would not vote for a conference recess this year because of the urgency of the situation. And he [Johnson] knew that very well.”

So no mystery about why he shut parliament down, it was for the reason I suggested, Remoaners and Bercow have been playing silly beggars with parliamentary conventions and procedures for months now, are you surprised that the government did the same ?

Hmmmm....

So you are trying to tell me that Parliament was prorogued for five weeks so that the Tories could have three days out in Manchester?

You are showing commendable blind faith in Boris Sinkov!

[sinkov]

Hmmmm....

So you are trying to tell me that Parliament was prorogued for five weeks so that the Tories could have three days out in Manchester?

You are showing commendable blind faith in Boris Sinkov!

I'm simply telling you 59 why I think Boris prorogued parliament, imo and that of Grieve one of the leading Remoaners in Parliament, he did it to prevent Remoaners voting down the recess and sitting throughout September. I find it odd that you were unaware of this underhand trick planned by Remoaners in Parliament, but yesterday I was having lunch with a Remainer friend, who's also a Labour Party activist, he has the T-shirt ready for Sunday in Manchester, and I was surprised to find that he too was blissfully unaware of the Remoaner plan to vote down the recess. As you will both get your info religiously from the Guardian and the BBC, I can only assume that both these lefty paragons of honest reporting have omitted to report on this devious Remoaner scheme.

For the life of me I cannot imagine why.

[1959_60]

I'm simply telling you 59 why I think Boris prorogued parliament, imo and that of Grieve one of the leading Remoaners in Parliament, he did it to prevent Remoaners voting down the recess and sitting throughout September. I find it odd that you were unaware of this underhand trick planned by Remoaners in Parliament, but yesterday I was having lunch with a Remainer friend, who's also a Labour Party activist, he has the T-shirt ready for Sunday in Manchester, and I was surprised to find that he too was blissfully unaware of the Remoaner plan to vote down the recess. As you will both get your info religiously from the Guardian and the BBC, I can only assume that both these lefty paragons of honest reporting have omitted to report on this devious Remoaner scheme.

For the life of me I cannot imagine why.

Well, let's just agree that we both have different views on why Boris did the prorogue thing.

I'm sure it will all be explained when he is no longer leader and he produces his book.

You will be able to find it on the fiction shelves

[sinkov]

Army, I presume you voted leave in 2016?

If so, were you partly persuaded by Boris and Farage in what they promised us? "A better deal than we have now, and we won't pay the EU any money" "The EU will be desperate to give us a good deal because the sell more to us than we sell to them" "It will be the easiest deal in history"
That is what we were promised.
I can honestly say that if I believed them I would have voted to leave. They were telling us that such a deal would greatly improve our countries lot - and I am all for that.

But now Boris and Farage have changed their minds. What they are offering us now is nothing like what they were selling us in 2016. THEY HAVE CHANGED THEIR MINDS.

If you were influenced by them in 2016 then don't you think you should be asked the question again, now you know the true position?
Perhaps you were not influenced by Boris and Farage's promises in 2016 but there will be plenty that were.
In these circumstances I truly believe that we should be allowed to confirm that we except the new offer or be given the chance to say that WE HAVE CHANGED OUR MINDS TOO.

You are right. Me and my party will always push for being as close to the EU as possible - it is in our DNA. Losing a vote will not change our core beliefs.
I well remember shortly after the vote had finished in 2016 Farage can on TV thinking remain had won. He told us that he had lost a battle but not the war and that the fight would go on. And I think that was totally OK by me. If he had lost I would not expect him to sit on his hands, he would have continued his campaign.

So if there is another referendum and the people confirm that they want to leave, then Leave we will. But the Lib Dems will continue to campaign as a pro European party. We will not become leavers overnight because of the result of a vote.

Like any other party we will fight a General Election on our beliefs over a wide range of issues. If we lose then we will not tear up these beliefs, and neither would any other party.

Simply, if you don't agree with us then don't vote for us. That's how democracy works.

Jesus fecking wept 59, what a piss poor, lame attempt to justify the Establishment and Political Class attempting to overturn the democratic result of the Referendum. Your utter contempt for the 17.4 million people who voted to leave is stunning, the people of this country are by no means as thick or gullible as you insist, they have the sense to see through the lies deceit and propaganda of politicians, and they are well capable of making their own minds up for themselves on the future of their country. Which they did, and voted to leave the EU. It couldn't be more simple, and your attempts to justify the denying of the democratic decision of the British people does you no favours at all, leave that drivel to duplicitous, mendacious politicians, have you no shame at all 59 ?

[1959_60]

Sinkov, I have been watching your Brexit journey over the years.

First you supported Nigels super "better deal than we have now without paying the EU a penny" offer.

Then you supported Thesesa's Mansion House version.

Then you objected to the real Theresa deal (i remember you saying that you would prefer to remain)

Now you support a no deal Brexit.

You have changed your mind several times, which is perfectly fine. You are in good company with Boris and Nigel on that.

So how do we know that others haven't changed their minds too? Perhaps they really wanted Boris and Nigel's version (I would too, but it was never going to happen) and perhaps these people haven't changed their minds enough to support no deal.

How do we find out their current thoughts?

Simple, ask them. Don't force on them something totally different to what you were selling in 2016.

YOU might be happy with the change of offer but plenty of others may not be.

[The Bedlington Terrier]

The vote was simple, it was unconditional.

Option 1: LEAVE.

Option 2: REMAIN.

17.4 million people voted to leave.

We have phucked about for three and a half years refusing to implement the will of the people, simply because 80% of our MP's are Remainers. Democracy is dead in the United Kingdom, the Lib Dems are just the pall bearers. Long live the Revolution.