OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[Trickytreesreds]

Bit pointless continuing if you can’t grasp what I’ve always argued.

1. I always argued that we should remain in the EU and use our influence to instigate change.

2. I’ve never defended Cameron or May. They were dreadful...simply pointed out that their own party treated them with the same ‘disdain’ - your word - as the EU.

3. Never had much time for Corbyn or Swinson either. You’re right...Johnson benefitted from their incompetence but that really doesn’t mean he should be trusted. He’s just the third shambolic Tory in a row and by far the most egocentric and dangerous...imo.

No point in going over old ground. I only responded because I just don’t get how chaos in Europe benefits anyone unless you really are in favour of some sort of anarchy.

Not at all RA, I just don't like bullies and the EU are bullies.

The only thing I would argue against with what you have have just typed is point one.
You don't seem to grasp, that we have have tried to you use our influence for change from within and failed, TWICE.
In fact failed, doesn't even cover it. They seemed to take a great delight in putting us in our place and telling us to do one.
On top of that exactly how many changed have we had voted through in our "membership"? Leave that one for you to Google my dear friend.

[ramAnag]

Not at all RA, I just don't like bullies and the EU are bullies.

The only thing I would argue against with what you have have just typed is point one.
You don't seem to grasp, that we have have tried to you use our influence for change from within and failed, TWICE.
In fact failed, doesn't even cover it. They seemed to take a great delight in putting us in our place and telling us to do one.
On top of that exactly how many changed have we had voted through in our "membership"? Leave that one for you to Google my dear friend.

Oh well...if we tried and failed ‘TWICE’ that’s it then isn’t it?

Everything you’ve said points to how important a member of the EU we were. Acceptance of your argument about it being on the point of collapse as a result of our withdrawal suggests exactly that and as important members and contributors we should have been able to use our influence to bring about change.

Unfortunately all too many of our Parliamentarians and MEPs appear to have proved inept, choosing to direct their energy into Brexit rather than trying to change from within. Still, I’m sure this time next year everything will be much better as the money we’ll be saving pours into the NHS at the rate Emperor Johnson promised. Maybe there’ll even be some left to fix the ‘Grenfell cladded’ tower blocks and the inadequate flood defences...then again!

[Trickytreesreds]

Oh well...if we tried and failed ‘TWICE’ that’s it then isn’t it?

Everything you’ve said points to how important a member of the EU we were. Acceptance of your argument about it being on the point of collapse as a result of our withdrawal suggests exactly that and as important members and contributors we should have been able to use our influence to bring about change.

Unfortunately all too many of our Parliamentarians and MEPs appear to have proved inept, choosing to direct their energy into Brexit rather than trying to change from within. Still, I’m sure this time next year everything will be much better as the money we’ll be saving pours into the NHS at the rate Emperor Johnson promised. Maybe there’ll even be some left to fix the ‘Grenfell cladded’ tower blocks and the inadequate flood defences...then again!

Jesus can you hear yourself?
We aren't that important. They gave us nowt, told us to get in line and are still trying to do so.
We have never changed anything.
We never will, as they give you nothing to encourage it.
If you really can't see that, you're beyond hope.

[MadAmster]

e this time next year everything will be much better as the money we’ll be saving pours into the NHS at the rate Emperor Johnson promised. Maybe there’ll even be some left to fix the ‘Grenfell cladded’ tower blocks and the inadequate flood defences...then again!

You surprise, no, you shock me with that one Tricky. BoJo never promised anything. The NHS slogan on that bus was no more, and no less, than an example of what could be done with the EU membership money. It wasn't even a lie, merely a portion of the truth. The £350M a week was/is the gross amount the UK paid in and still does up to the end of 2020 and, even after that, there will be the phased payment of the "divorce bill". The net amount, taking the rebate and grants and subsidies into account, was roughly half that.

Once we have fully left and also paid off the divorce bill over however many years that is, we will have an extra £350M a week minus any grants/subsidies Westminster makes to the regions to make up for the ones they won't be getting from Brussels. I may be a cynic but, I don't think BoJo et al have the slightest intention of continuing to "be kind" to the regions. Remember, the Tories are a London centric party.

It's quite amazing how many folk thought that "let's fund the NHS instead! actually meant we WILL put ALL that money into the NHS......

[ramAnag]

Jesus can you hear yourself?
We aren't that important. They gave us nowt, told us to get in line and are still trying to do so.
We have never changed anything.
We never will, as they give you nothing to encourage it.
If you really can't see that, you're beyond hope.

Tricky...you can’t have it both ways.
You continually speak of how us leaving the EU will lead to some sort of EU implosion and how they can’t survive without our input and, as we were one of the biggest ‘players’/contributors, there’s obviously some truth in that.
On the other hand you seldom stop bleating that they never gave us anything - absolute nonsense - told us to ‘get in line’ and took no notice of us.
Surely as one of the big three, which we were, it was up to us to make our voice heard...that’s what being one of the influential ‘big boys’ is all about.

Anyway we’re going round in circles again.

MA...you’re right, it wasn’t actually a ‘promise’. Neither was it a ‘portion’ of the truth...it was a deliberate distortion of the truth but I don’t feel you should be ‘amazed’ by how many folk fell for the words on Boris’ bus. The majority of the electorate don’t share your level of political ‘literacy’.
They fell for Johnson’s words in exactly the same way as they fell for Farage being a ‘man of the people’ and in exactly the same way as they were bored into believing that ‘let’s get Brexit done’ was preferable to let’s actually understand the logic and consequences of what we’re about to do.

[macstheman]

Ah, as Omar said 'the moving finger writes and having writ...............etc etc'
Life is short really, forget the past give all to the future!!

[Geoff Parkstone]

Tricky...you can’t have it both ways.
You continually speak of how us leaving the EU will lead to some sort of EU implosion and how they can’t survive without our input and, as we were one of the biggest ‘players’/contributors, there’s obviously some truth in that.
On the other hand you seldom stop bleating that they never gave us anything - absolute nonsense - told us to ‘get in line’ and took no notice of us.
Surely as one of the big three, which we were, it was up to us to make our voice heard...that’s what being one of the influential ‘big boys’ is all about.

Anyway we’re going round in circles again.

MA...you’re right, it wasn’t actually a ‘promise’. Neither was it a ‘portion’ of the truth...it was a deliberate distortion of the truth but I don’t feel you should be ‘amazed’ by how many folk fell for the words on Boris’ bus. The majority of the electorate don’t share your level of political ‘literacy’.
They fell for Johnson’s words in exactly the same way as they fell for Farage being a ‘man of the people’ and in exactly the same way as they were bored into believing that ‘let’s get Brexit done’ was preferable to let’s actually understand the logic and consequences of what we’re about to do.

I think a lot more people understood the consequences of Brexit, more so than you think, as they had been lectured on those very consequences by remoaners for several years before the BJ vote gave Brexit to Joe Public. They just didn't care as long as they got what they voted for (possibly when more ignorant of consequences). But they weren't going to be told that their objectives of freedom from EU oppression came at a n economic price. After all, if you've got **** all, then **** all minus a half isn't much different.

I think its a little patronising of you to assert that brexiteers didn't understand the consequences whereas remainers did.

[Trickytreesreds]

Tricky...you can’t have it both ways.
You continually speak of how us leaving the EU will lead to some sort of EU implosion and how they can’t survive without our input and, as we were one of the biggest ‘players’/contributors, there’s obviously some truth in that.
On the other hand you seldom stop bleating that they never gave us anything - absolute nonsense - told us to ‘get in line’ and took no notice of us.
Surely as one of the big three, which we were, it was up to us to make our voice heard...that’s what being one of the influential ‘big boys’ is all about.

Anyway we’re going round in circles again.

MA...you’re right, it wasn’t actually a ‘promise’. Neither was it a ‘portion’ of the truth...it was a deliberate distortion of the truth but I don’t feel you should be ‘amazed’ by how many folk fell for the words on Boris’ bus. The majority of the electorate don’t share your level of political ‘literacy’.
They fell for Johnson’s words in exactly the same way as they fell for Farage being a ‘man of the people’ and in exactly the same way as they were bored into believing that ‘let’s get Brexit done’ was preferable to let’s actually understand the logic and consequences of what we’re about to do.

lol not the bus again,

Europe falling into war
3 million on the dole
Emergency Brexit tax
House prices falling by a third
Each hosehold 4.5 k a year worse off
GDP 6.2 % lower if we vote leave
36 billion spending deficit

But oh no, we cling to a slogan on a bloody bus as the most outrageous fabrication EVER!!!!!!!!!!!
iT'S LAUGHABALE.

Maybe Blairs weapons of mass destruction that could obliterate us in 45 mins is a minor fib as well?

[ramAnag]

I’m not seeking to be patronising GP, neither am I suggesting that Remainers know it all while ‘leavers’ may be defined as being ignorant and I do take macstheman’s point completely which is why I’ve remained very quiet on the subject since the election result.

Obviously I think we - as a country - have made a huge mistake but I can’t see a way of going back so what’s done is - sadly imo -done.

The only reason I got reinvolved was because Tricky seemed positively gleeful at the potential chaos unfolding amongst the EU nations and I just don’t understand that.
Yes I share the desire for our country to do well but why should we revel in Europe’s potential unravelling...how can that possibly help?
Isn’t such a situation likely to lead to even greater resentment towards us from our closest geographical and political neighbours along with more political uncertainty, were the points I was making.

As for the electorate and Joe Public’s ability to make meaningful political decisions...you know as well as I do and have intimated as such...that a large proportion of the electorate have neither the intellect or the interest to make such informed decisions which is, imo, precisely the reason that we are currently allowing our future to be dictated by such - again imo - narcissistic liars as Johnson and Trump.

To rewind to 3/7/16 when MoP started this thread...the future is now certainly Brexit but is it actually ‘bright’?
For the minority who remain interested that is the question.

[Geoff Parkstone]

"Yes I share the desire for our country to do well but why should we revel in Europe’s potential unravelling...how can that possibly help?"

Yes I share the desire for derby county to do well but why should we revel in forest's potential unravelling...how can that possibly help? BUT WE DO NONETHELESS. Sadly its human nature to gloat at the misfortunes of others, especially close rivals. Unfortunate, but thats the way it is