Quote Originally Posted by shaded View Post
they have only become so by some member representatives crawling up white collar arses.
the trick is to expel those rat representatives and to avoid the pendulum swinging too far from where it is now.

why would anyone say that hard fought gains of the past are an outdated concept is beyond me,
i take it you said to your boss in the past,

nah its ok i dont want
paid holidays
proper health and safety
proper working conditions
proper pay

in my working life iv seen
well paid employees selling specific holidays for a misery amount,holidays that our fathers and grandfathers took a long time to gain
introducing temp workers
the near disappearance of apprenticeships
introducing 0 hour contracts
a manager who was trying to telling a guy he couldn't go to the doctor as he had to finish his postie round

the unions have been ruined by the whats in it for me shiiit houses who are only in it for themselves
the work place is hugely a safer place with unions than without them
Firstly I didn't say the gains were outdated I said the unions were. Just because they were effective back then (or ineffective where their actions resulted in job losses) doesn't mean they will be as effective now.

Secondly my background is in manufacturing and O&G so my experiences might be completely different to yours and others'.

Many of the hard fought gains of the past belong there; society has moved on. Public holidays for example are more and more just not recognised with an additional flexi day to use as you see fit put in their place. This stops the facility having to shut down on specified days. The worst case example of this would be the trades fortnight which very few employers recognise these days and removal of which gives the employee much more flexibility with their time off.

Health and safety is not a union responsibility it's a legal responsibility that employers must comply with. Maybe the unions were part of its implementation originally but these days employers must look after the H&S of employees and most will put a specialist in the position of HSE Manager / Advisor. The ones that don't employ such a person will likely use a sub contractor to advise them. Many companies have H&S committees on which union reps will sit, this is only a committee and is not responsible for implementation although obviously they can suggest or recommend. Where there are no unions within a company it's nominated employees that will sit on the committee doing exactly what the union rep would do. When something goes tragically wrong it's the MD that goes to jail not the union rep or the H&S committee.

Acceptable working conditions (physical) are again a legal requirement. Any employee that feels their working conditions are unsafe or detrimental to their health can report this to the HSE who have the power to issue notices that will force employers to improve conditions or risk temporary or total close down.

Employment conditions and pay. Sorry but when you're offered a job you know the pay and conditions such as pension and holiday entitlement, you sign as accepting them and enter a contract with an employer. I don't have time for anyone that accepts a role at a rate then complains that the pay and conditions aren't acceptable. Wouldn't be the first time I've asked someone 'well you accepted them so why are they suddenly unacceptable'? Tends to shut them up.

Temp workers are something I haven't encountered much so won't comment on.

There are still apprenticeships available. Difference now is that you don't have to be six**** and straight out of school with six 'O' Levels to get one so in fact are more inclusive. It's a question I always ask prospective suppliers to the company I work for, it costs them almost nothing to take on an apprentice and failure to do so shows an incredible lack of foresight in my opinion and will lower my opinion of them.

Again I've no experience of zero hour contracts so won't comment other than to say these are allowed by government and employers are going to take advantage. The issue lies further up the food chain than employers and I doubt unions could do much more than take membership fees from people on theses contracts when they fall under their remit.

The doctor thing's a difficult one to address. I've never had a problem with people going to the doctor in work time but I know that a lot of managers do. My doctor surgery is (normally) open for consultation from 8am to 6pm Monday to Friday and I think they'll see you on a Saturday morning if you really can't make it midweek. They also do telephone consultations which is something I've used myself many times. So I can't really see why anyone would be making an appointment at an appropriate time for a routine consultation. If the condition is so bad that they need to get to the doctor immediately they really shouldn't be at work.

I agree ref. the 'what's in it for me' part. Unions would have a place (my opinion) if they worked with employers rather than against them and only for the benefit of full time union officials who have no interest in the employees but only in lining their own pockets.

The work place is a hugely safer place due to health and safety legislation. A workplace with union representation is not necessarily any safer than one without.