O/T Coronavirus Thread (4)

[wendun]

Raging would rather see many of us dead than offend the sensibilities of his beloveds.

[wendun]

Are you suggesting you believe it is possible that this single incident is responsible for the spike in Blackburn?

In the week to 17 July the "spike" of new cases in Blackburn was 118. Such numbers are easily explained by a single incident but the mosque funeral was a normal occurrence in similar communities anyway. Apparently when we look at areas with high rates of infection and note they have large South Asian and immigrant communities this is a red herring. Dense housing is really to blame - although this fails to explain very low rates in many areas of dense housing with a different ethnic makeup.

[KerrAvon]

Much as I love to take part in the odd spot of sealioning, my point is more to do with how GF and Gristy could both make direct allegations that the funeral was responsible for the spike, with no evidence, yet you immediately pick up on the fact that John asserted that out wasn't to do with the funeral, without evidence. Why do you pick up on one, but not the others?

I know that you enjoy sealioning. And not just the ‘odd bit’.

Your question is a fair one and one that I have been thinking about for some time. There is a three part answer, one part of which is specific to this thread and the other two more general:

1. In this instance, gf is right. He didn’t make a direct allegation about the funeral. He asked a perfectly valid question, irrespective of his motives. You know full well that he has a point, hence your attempt to devalue it with your ‘I knew you’d hide behind that’ comment. It’s a bit lame to suggest that someone is hiding behind the truth.

2. Cayton is half right. I don’t have an ignore list and wouldn’t know how to create one, but I do largely ignore certain posters. If I read Grist or gf’s posts, I generally only scan them to get their gist as I broadly know what they will say and rarely attach any weight to it. Grist only has about half a dozen posts that he recycles on every thread.

3. The crux of it is that I want to be able to expect more from the Left, because that is where my political heart is. I took the mickey out of you for your spaniel like devotion to Corbyn, but I was one of the 17 people who voted for Foot in 1983 and I have easily voted Labour more than for any other party and never for the Tories in a GE. I grew up believing in a Left position in politics an economics and want to be able to do so again, but I want to see an honest and brave Left not one that is craven and hopelessly lost in ideology and its own prejudices.

I have no idea whether the alleged Blackburn mosque caused a ‘spike’. I am, like John, not equipped to make that assessment, but equally, I don’t want a Left that is willing to sweep the possibility that it did under an ideological carpet that brooks no possible criticism of a group of people because of their ‘favoured’ ethnicity or religion. When you do that sort of thing, you don’t learn lessons and simply allow past mistakes to continue.

Consider this. If it had been a group of 250 Tories who had come together for a funeral, both you and John would have melted your keyboards in a torrential word count of criticism. Because it wasn’t Tories and was, instead, a 'favoured' group, John feels able to click his fingers and grant absolution (in saying that, I appreciate that both you and john mouthed your obligatory ‘it shouldn’t have happeneds’). That is not a Left that I can belong to and it annoys me.

[wendun]

If we consider raging's assertion that a college in London can have 80% black students and that you can throw a coat over the localities in our towns and cities inhabited by ethnic communities we have to conclude that the dream of racial integration is chimerical. We then have to ask why secular, progressive groups are so wedded to medieval monotheists, many of whom dislike important aspects of Western democracies, are misogynistic, homophobic and a minority of whom are inclined to terrorism. I confess myself baffled.

[John2]

John feels able to click his fingers and grant absolution (in saying that, I appreciate that both you and john mouthed your obligatory ‘it shouldn’t have happeneds’). That is not a Left that I can belong to and it annoys me.

I'll tell you what annoys me. Repeatedly misrepresenting my position and then just utterly ignoring my challenges.

My post here was to point out the absurdity that a single incident was the cause of a spike that in a town of hundreds of thousands of people when in reality it is multi factoral. I made a sarcastic comment to point put the absurdity of this and indirectly question's gf motivations for the way he attempted to paint this single incident.

Can you quote exactly where you think I have "granted absolution" in doing that? Your words.

Can you answer the question as to whether you think there is a chance this incident is solely responsible for the spike in Blackburn? This seems to be the confusion. I've never suggested it was a harmless, non-issue.

It shouldn't have happened. Why do you dismiss my agreeing with this point? I'm not sure which group you do increasingly find yourself aligning with, but I don't appreciate my politics being misquoted and misrepresented, it annoys me.

You also make a throwaway comment about how I'd be more upset if it was a group of Tories. This is true, but we've had the argument about why law makers cause more damage when they undermine public safety rules they have created - do you disagree with this point?

Its a bit sad that you'll make a load of accusations and then when challenged just completely ignore meaningfully addressing them instead favouring side swipes reiterating those same points I tried to address.

[caytonmiller]

OR maybe it's just god being a bit rasist ?

[wendun]

My post here was to point out the absurdity that a single incident was the cause of a spike that in a town of hundreds of thousands of people when in reality it is multi factoral.

Blackburn and Darwen has a population of 144,000 not "hundreds of thousands." The 118 cases represent something like the 79 in 100,000 that is the B&D Covid rate. An incident involving 250 people could easily explain much of the spike - the spike actually reprsented an uplift of only 45-55 cases.
You are a disgrace btw. Your constant refrain of "multi factoral" to cover anything from Covid infections to child abuse is intended solely to obscure the truth. Nothing more nothing less. A disgrace.

[John2]

You are a disgrace btw. Your constant refrain of "multi factoral" to cover anything from Covid infections to child abuse is intended solely to obscure the truth. Nothing more nothing less. A disgrace.

lol, thanks for that wendun! I might get it made into a badge.

I don't doubt there are many communities participating in behaviours that propagate this virus. Those violating the rules should all face appropriate punishment. All I have done is pointed out the absurdity of blaming smaller incidents for much larger consequences.

It is actually provable that the mosque incident is not solely responsible for the spike. Not just through a little bit of common sense, but also with the application of science.

The mosque incident took place on July 13th.

Studies have shown that the optimal time to take the test and not get a false negative is 8 days after exposure (which happens to be today, July 21st)
https://www.sciencedaily.com/release...0526173832.htm

In fact the science shows that 100% of tests on the day of exposure, down to 67% on day 4 will turn up negative even if the person has been exposed to the virus because it needs time to multiply in the body.

The bulk of cases in Blackburn came on the 15th (35 cases) and 16th (31 cases), and dropped off again from the 17th (13 cases) when people would only be starting to develop symptoms and test positive more often than not.
https://news.sky.com/story/coronavir...daily-11956258

Will anyone be willing to acknowledge what I am saying the science shows to be a reasonable and evidence based assertion?

[ragingpup]

I know that you enjoy sealioning. And not just the ‘odd bit’.

Your question is a fair one and one that I have been thinking about for some time. There is a three part answer, one part of which is specific to this thread and the other two more general:

1. In this instance, gf is right. He didn’t make a direct allegation about the funeral. He asked a perfectly valid question, irrespective of his motives. You know full well that he has a point, hence your attempt to devalue it with your ‘I knew you’d hide behind that’ comment. It’s a bit lame to suggest that someone is hiding behind the truth.

2. Cayton is half right. I don’t have an ignore list and wouldn’t know how to create one, but I do largely ignore certain posters. If I read Grist or gf’s posts, I generally only scan them to get their gist as I broadly know what they will say and rarely attach any weight to it. Grist only has about half a dozen posts that he recycles on every thread.

3. The crux of it is that I want to be able to expect more from the Left, because that is where my political heart is. I took the mickey out of you for your spaniel like devotion to Corbyn, but I was one of the 17 people who voted for Foot in 1983 and I have easily voted Labour more than for any other party and never for the Tories in a GE. I grew up believing in a Left position in politics an economics and want to be able to do so again, but I want to see an honest and brave Left not one that is craven and hopelessly lost in ideology and its own prejudices.

I have no idea whether the alleged Blackburn mosque caused a ‘spike’. I am, like John, not equipped to make that assessment, but equally, I don’t want a Left that is willing to sweep the possibility that it did under an ideological carpet that brooks no possible criticism of a group of people because of their ‘favoured’ ethnicity or religion. When you do that sort of thing, you don’t learn lessons and simply allow past mistakes to continue.

Consider this. If it had been a group of 250 Tories who had come together for a funeral, both you and John would have melted your keyboards in a torrential word count of criticism. Because it wasn’t Tories and was, instead, a 'favoured' group, John feels able to click his fingers and grant absolution (in saying that, I appreciate that both you and john mouthed your obligatory ‘it shouldn’t have happeneds’). That is not a Left that I can belong to and it annoys me.

I didn't actually know what 'sealioning' meant, I just liked the idea of doing it, whatever it was!

1. You know as well as I do that Fire is using a rhetorical question. He has already decided what is responsible for the spike and is spreading that with the usual tribe without any evidence. If you're happy with that, and don't want to request evidence, fine. It's easy for you to hide behind the semantic phrasing also. Be my guest.

2. Understood.

3. I get your position on this. You are highlighting my support for Corbyn, but I also supported Mililband before that. And although I voted for Nandy (you thought RLB didn't you?), I am supporting Starmer all the way, although will be as critical with him in meetings as I was with Corbyn's leadership. What appears to be happening though is quite common in the party. The centrists are so focused with attacking the left that they have neglected to challenge the right and far right - and can you sense it taking over this board and other areas via the internet, armed with a shield of 'Identity Politics' for anyone that challenges it? I was disappointed that you also started throwing this term around at any of us that challenge the dominant view on these political threads - I asked you what for you had changed since you supported Labour under Blair, when the very same progressive arguments resulted in further equality legislation being passed under Blair. Was these hard won laws protecting minorities 'identity politics' then? I'm keen to know why you supported such progressive politics then but label them 'identity politics' now? What's changed for you? The progressive left has always been there, then as it is now, and the motivations of equal and fair representation for all in society is the same. You are correct in challenging for evidence from the left, and offering scrutiny, but to just let so many un-evidenced extremist propaganda on here go unchallenged at the same time. The (your) left weakens whilst the right grows unchallenged?

For the record - the funeral organisers if they broke the covid laws should be dealt with by the law the same as any other people who organised an event that contravened the law. But I don't know enough about what has happened, to what extent distancing was observed etc but it does seem clear that the law was broken. Just do what we do with any other law breaking event surely? Any idea why this didn't happen? You may recall my support of the schools that introduced PSHD classes which some local Muslim residents found offensive and threatened to withdraw them from school. My view expressed on here was that we should fine the parents for not adhering to what we see as 'British Values'. Further, the cowardise of the local authorities in Rotherham and other towns where oragised child abuse was nothing short of disgraceful. I hope we have learned from that. I'm happy to call out minorities as and when I see clear evidence, but I also see quite clearly how willing many, many people are to condemn minorities without clear evidence and we should all be joining against these.

Ironically, the most 'race confronted' issue I have to deal with in my work are (very few I should clarify) Black Christian learners who are homophobic and misogynistic. This is a frequent low level issue that we have to deal with, and it falls under the British Values banner. I have had 2 parents that have withdrawn their kids from us as we have delivered sessions that follow the BV agenda and I'm proud of that. If parents don't want their kids to follow and understand the British values agenda (and I know it has critics on theleft), then they are better off away from here. But I support all schools following this through, mandatory teaching or lessons in English with all kids to learn the English lessons without exception in all primary schools. If it was down to me, I'd ban religious specialist schools altogether which I imagine would piss many on the left off, as well as the right.

[rolymiller]

So this bug aint going away. Has it not struck folks the best way to deal with this bug in terms of not getting it or mitigating its effect if you do is to ensure you have a healthy body in the first place if you can. At the risk of sounding like a health fascist-not bad from a fat fecker mi sen- that means cutting down on the booze, fags and snap and exercising more yet we all know we should do that anyway to combat other health problems.