Scottish Government moving the goalposts

[troodee1893]

I think you are right Taintedice. Younger people have much more faith in politicians. They have not lived through the constant spin that is everywhere and they believe social media posts. On here you get a range of opinion which is generally respectful. There are disagreements all the time but they seem to be useful. The worry for me is that I do not believe that politicians know best. They need to provide cogent reasons for their decisions and in many cases the real reason for making a decision is that it will benefit their party rather than actually help the country as a whole.

Tend to agree BCram that younger folk have more faith in politicians than older more 'cynical' voters. I also think that younger folk are more left wing and tend more towards independence than older voters and that a fair proportion of said younger folk move towards the right in their political views and against independence as they get older. Furthermore I agree that for the most part posts are respectful of other's views but why is it when anyone speaks up against independence they are made out to be rabid ultra right wing tories. I can assure you that there is a large body of left leaning folk who are dead against independence.

I have tended not to get involved in the political postings on this forum but I read them with interest (I also look at the similar threads over on the darkside and we have no one on here quite as mad as that Gunboat fella; he's definitely not right, him! FACT). So here goes on a few of the political topics raised in this and other similar threads.

As far as the pandemic is concerned I reckon that Scotland had fared no better or worse than the rest of the UK and that all of the politicians have had a hard job to do. I support no particular party, certainly not the tories, and have a 'healthy' disrespect for politicians in general (I've always thought that everything, in their minds, comes second to getting themselves re-elected). I agree with a lot of the posts that suggest that we have gone too far with lockdowns and that some of the restrictions are senseless, useless and counter productive. I also think that the way we count Covid death's is the single stupidest thing in the whole Covid situation. Most countries count the death toll differently making comparisons between them morbid in the extreme, insensitive and plain daft. FWIW I reckon we have a system in place that brings out the most Covid deaths and that other countries' figures are 'manipulated' to the other end of the scale meaning that comparisons with Germany, France etc. (Sweden as well Returnofrros) are meaningless and therefore imo UK is not as bad as is made out by many in their response to Covid.

With regard to Independence I am firmly in the no camp and voted no in 2014 (for the record I voted to stay in Europe at the Brexit vote however the way they have acted since has sickened me to the extent that I wish I had voted to leave). To be honest Independence scares me to death purely from the financial point of view. I am no fan of the current Scottish Government and their recent record but imo it is no worse that the Tories rule of the UK. I just can't get my head round how folk can seriously think we would be better off financially on our own. I reckon we would be worse off, disastrously so. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and to express it so here is mine. Without the Barnett formula that gives us spending of over 20% higher per head compared with England where is all the money coming from to maintain the status quo. Without quoting the eyewatering projected tax increases in Income Tax, VAT and other taxes being bandied about there is no doubt (SNP know it and admit it) that taxes will soar. There is no way we would be admitted to the EU as we couldn't get anywhere near the criteria required for entry. Use of the euro is therefore out, the UK have already stated that the pound is not an option and a Scottish pound again scares me to death as god knows how much of a devaluation we would suffer against the current UK pound. Businesses would declare their profits in England just as many UK companies declare profits abroad to avoid taxes. Many folk would opt still to receive pay and pensions in UK pounds and hold Uk pound bank accounts if the source is from Companies not based in Scotland. Outwith the financial pending disaster I have no real objections to independence and I am as patriotic a Scot as the next man. I take particular offence when it is made out that you are not patriotic or a true Scot if you oppose independence and object to the Scottish Saltire being hi-jacked by the Independence movement. It is Scotland's flag not the SNP's.

Lastly, and I have hopefully made it clear that I have no particular political persuasion, I reckon Nicola Sturgeon is as guilty as sin in this whole cover up scandal and she should do the honourable thing and resign immediately. She wont and that dismays me.

PS I can't stick Alex Salmond either or Ruth Davidson or the linesman fella. The new Labour lad looks promising and hopefully he wont get sucked down into the morass of Hollyrood lies and deceptions.

[Returnofrros]

Tend to agree BCram that younger folk have more faith in politicians than older more 'cynical' voters. I also think that younger folk are more left wing and tend more towards independence than older voters and that a fair proportion of said younger folk move towards the right in their political views and against independence as they get older. Furthermore I agree that for the most part posts are respectful of other's views but why is it when anyone speaks up against independence they are made out to be rabid ultra right wing tories. I can assure you that there is a large body of left leaning folk who are dead against independence.

I have tended not to get involved in the political postings on this forum but I read them with interest (I also look at the similar threads over on the darkside and we have no one on here quite as mad as that Gunboat fella; he's definitely not right, him! FACT). So here goes on a few of the political topics raised in this and other similar threads.

As far as the pandemic is concerned I reckon that Scotland had fared no better or worse than the rest of the UK and that all of the politicians have had a hard job to do. I support no particular party, certainly not the tories, and have a 'healthy' disrespect for politicians in general (I've always thought that everything, in their minds, comes second to getting themselves re-elected). I agree with a lot of the posts that suggest that we have gone too far with lockdowns and that some of the restrictions are senseless, useless and counter productive. I also think that the way we count Covid death's is the single stupidest thing in the whole Covid situation. Most countries count the death toll differently making comparisons between them morbid in the extreme, insensitive and plain daft. FWIW I reckon we have a system in place that brings out the most Covid deaths and that other countries' figures are 'manipulated' to the other end of the scale meaning that comparisons with Germany, France etc. (Sweden as well Returnofrros) are meaningless and therefore imo UK is not as bad as is made out by many in their response to Covid.

With regard to Independence I am firmly in the no camp and voted no in 2014 (for the record I voted to stay in Europe at the Brexit vote however the way they have acted since has sickened me to the extent that I wish I had voted to leave). To be honest Independence scares me to death purely from the financial point of view. I am no fan of the current Scottish Government and their recent record but imo it is no worse that the Tories rule of the UK. I just can't get my head round how folk can seriously think we would be better off financially on our own. I reckon we would be worse off, disastrously so. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and to express it so here is mine. Without the Barnett formula that gives us spending of over 20% higher per head compared with England where is all the money coming from to maintain the status quo. Without quoting the eyewatering projected tax increases in Income Tax, VAT and other taxes being bandied about there is no doubt (SNP know it and admit it) that taxes will soar. There is no way we would be admitted to the EU as we couldn't get anywhere near the criteria required for entry. Use of the euro is therefore out, the UK have already stated that the pound is not an option and a Scottish pound again scares me to death as god knows how much of a devaluation we would suffer against the current UK pound. Businesses would declare their profits in England just as many UK companies declare profits abroad to avoid taxes. Many folk would opt still to receive pay and pensions in UK pounds and hold Uk pound bank accounts if the source is from Companies not based in Scotland. Outwith the financial pending disaster I have no real objections to independence and I am as patriotic a Scot as the next man. I take particular offence when it is made out that you are not patriotic or a true Scot if you oppose independence and object to the Scottish Saltire being hi-jacked by the Independence movement. It is Scotland's flag not the SNP's.

Lastly, and I have hopefully made it clear that I have no particular political persuasion, I reckon Nicola Sturgeon is as guilty as sin in this whole cover up scandal and she should do the honourable thing and resign immediately. She wont and that dismays me.

PS I can't stick Alex Salmond either or Ruth Davidson or the linesman fella. The new Labour lad looks promising and hopefully he wont get sucked down into the morass of Hollyrood lies and deceptions.

Agree with most of that.

I'll add most of the rabidness these days is left wing......and I ❤ Sweden.

[Taintedice]

You'd never think that Scotland is the ONLY sovereign country in the world that sends all its revenues to another country and then receives a fraction of it back (Barnett formula) and then be told it should be grateful. How on earth do all these other countries survive without Barnett, that's the puzzling thing. It's easy enough for the older generations to say they want to make sure their pensions are safe, but when you're in your t e e n s and early 20s and faced with an English tory government further to the right than Thatcher for the next 40-50 years, no wonder the younger people want another option.

[Taintedice]

I think you are right Taintedice. Younger people have much more faith in politicians. They have not lived through the constant spin that is everywhere and they believe social media posts. On here you get a range of opinion which is generally respectful. There are disagreements all the time but they seem to be useful. The worry for me is that I do not believe that politicians know best. They need to provide cogent reasons for their decisions and in many cases the real reason for making a decision is that it will benefit their party rather than actually help the country as a whole.

Politicians are generally useless, as they tend not to have the qualifications that would be mandatory for anyone else getting a job. They rely heavily on civil servants who have years of experience under various administrations, albeit it Scotland and England are both 'one-party states' to use the new buzz phrase. England more so as the SNP still need the Greens to back them up.

[troodee1893]

You'd never think that Scotland is the ONLY sovereign country in the world that sends all its revenues to another country and then receives a fraction of it back (Barnett formula) and then be told it should be grateful. How on earth do all these other countries survive without Barnett, that's the puzzling thing. It's easy enough for the older generations to say they want to make sure their pensions are safe, but when you're in your t e e n s and early 20s and faced with an English tory government further to the right than Thatcher for the next 40-50 years, no wonder the younger people want another option.

That sounds good but it is a total corruption of the facts. I suppose if Scotland were able to walk away without taking on its proportional share of the UK national debt then they would be able to borrow enough to run the country. What is sure in my mind is that without raising taxes to ridiculous levels there is no way they could balance the books. You and I just know that the high earners and companies will find ways of avoiding such taxes leaving the burden on the ordinary working person. Also if we spent nil on defence that I suppose would help. If we get independence, god forbid, then bookmark this for 5 to 10 years down the line when we will be ruled by whichever international bank that had lent to us, dictating interest rates, tax levels and forcing the 'savings haircut' a la Cyprus where the state levied/stole a hefty percentage of folks savings. Independence would bankrupt us I am convinced. I have many close SNP friends a number of whom admit this in private but the holy grail of Independence trumps all. One of the aforementioned is an SNP councillor and well up in the party.

[troodee1893]

You'd never think that Scotland is the ONLY sovereign country in the world that sends all its revenues to another country and then receives a fraction of it back (Barnett formula) and then be told it should be grateful. How on earth do all these other countries survive without Barnett, that's the puzzling thing. It's easy enough for the older generations to say they want to make sure their pensions are safe, but when you're in your t e e n s and early 20s and faced with an English tory government further to the right than Thatcher for the next 40-50 years, no wonder the younger people want another option.

Despite what the tories say there is an alternative to the SNP and it doesn't have to be tory. The devolved Scottish parliament that was the dream of Donald Dewar would surely be better than the status quo where most of the government's energies are dissipated on the quest for independence. Imo a labour administration would be better but not at all likely at present. Therefore all I can hope for from the election is a hung parliament where proportional representation will rule out the excesses of any of the parties just so long as the balance of power is not still with the preening looney party known as the Green party.

[Taintedice]

Like i say, Scotland is the only sovereign country in the world that sends its revenues to a different country and gets a fraction of it back as pocket money. The UK treasury never releases the true revenues for Scotland, stopped doing it 100 years ago.

Every other country manages to collect taxes, spend them on services, borrow when they have to, just normal country stuff.

There is also no prospect of being saddled with UK debt, it just isn't that transferrable and most of it doesn't exist outside of spreadsheets anyway. Scotland's so-called deficit reflects what UK governments do, not what happens in Scotland.

But I don't see the SNP convincing enough people when it comes to the crunch so no bookmarking required

[Taintedice]

Despite what the tories say there is an alternative to the SNP and it doesn't have to be tory. The devolved Scottish parliament that was the dream of Donald Dewar would surely be better than the status quo where most of the government's energies are dissipated on the quest for independence. Imo a labour administration would be better but not at all likely at present. Therefore all I can hope for from the election is a hung parliament where proportional representation will rule out the excesses of any of the parties just so long as the balance of power is not still with the preening looney party known as the Green party.

Scots have had enough of the london-parties dictacting what happens in Scotland, I'm afraid. If Anas Sarwar declared his independence from Keir Starmer, he may have a chance of reviving Scotlab's fortunes, but since he was annointed by Sir Keir, he'll be doing what he's told same as the cow-loving lineman. Scots just can't be arsed with labour any more, maybe rros can restart the SUP, they were big once upon a time, when they were Scottish.

[Returnofrros]

You'd never think that Scotland is the ONLY sovereign country in the world that sends all its revenues to another country and then receives a fraction of it back (Barnett formula) and then be told it should be grateful. How on earth do all these other countries survive without Barnett, that's the puzzling thing. It's easy enough for the older generations to say they want to make sure their pensions are safe, but when you're in your t e e n s and early 20s and faced with an English tory government further to the right than Thatcher for the next 40-50 years, no wonder the younger people want another option.

You keep saying this 're Tory Govt.

Most likely result of next uk election is a hung parliament.

Don't take my word for it (as if you would) ask Mrs paddy power....she knows

No overall majority 11/10

Tory 13/8

[The AuldYin]

Like i say, Scotland is the only sovereign country in the world that sends its revenues to a different country and gets a fraction of it back as pocket money. The UK treasury never releases the true revenues for Scotland, stopped doing it 100 years ago.

Every other country manages to collect taxes, spend them on services, borrow when they have to, just normal country stuff.

There is also no prospect of being saddled with UK debt, it just isn't that transferrable and most of it doesn't exist outside of spreadsheets anyway. Scotland's so-called deficit reflects what UK governments do, not what happens in Scotland.

But I don't see the SNP convincing enough people when it comes to the crunch so no bookmarking required

And who the **** is gonna loan money to a country that's just reneged on it's debt? The SNP threatened this in 2014 and although they very quickly withdrew the threat it was too late the damage was done. The UK believe it or not has the luxury of borrowing money relatively cheaply, a newly formed Scotland wouldn't, especially as we seem to hand over freebies like sweeties.