OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[Trickytreesreds]

I don’t pretend to know how, AF...but simple acceptance of GP’s second paragraph as representing the inevitable future is too bleak and depressing to allow.

We have to look beyond just shrugging our shoulders and washing our hands of the problems posed in poorer more troublesome parts of the world. We wouldn’t do that with our own families and one only has to look at the reaction to Covid to realise what is possible.
A year ago we’d all have been saying...but how can we do anything about this...it’ll be years before we have a vaccine...but then the scientific world got its arse in gear and, despite the best efforts of certain politicians across the world, the impossible became possible.

At the risk of sounding like a vicar again...where there’s a will, there’s a way...but first we have to get rid of the ‘survival of the fittest’ mentality which, coincidentally, is exactly what the pandemic vaccination strategy acknowledged.

Lovely words RA, I wish I could feel the same way.
But lets be honest here, can you really see Russia/China/USA, then a whole host of smaller, but richer nations really adopting that?
No.neither can I.
But for some reason, there is an element in this country that insists we do more than anyone else to set an example, that everyone else ignores.

There in lies the conundrum. When we do this, to help the poor world, its our own poorer people who suffer more.

[Geoff Parkstone]

I don’t pretend to know how, AF...but simple acceptance of GP’s second paragraph as representing the inevitable future is too bleak and depressing to allow.

We have to look beyond just shrugging our shoulders and washing our hands of the problems posed in poorer more troublesome parts of the world. We wouldn’t do that with our own families and one only has to look at the reaction to Covid to realise what is possible.
A year ago we’d all have been saying...but how can we do anything about this...it’ll be years before we have a vaccine...but then the scientific world got its arse in gear and, despite the best efforts of certain politicians across the world, the impossible became possible.

At the risk of sounding like a vicar again...where there’s a will, there’s a way...but first we have to get rid of the ‘survival of the fittest’ mentality which, coincidentally, is exactly what the pandemic vaccination strategy acknowledged.

How can I put it nicely. The words of a theoretician, a fantasist, a dreamer? Not wanting to sound harsh but how do you translate this into an environment where cash is king?

COVID 19 was "solved" by science, in a sense - in realty there is no solution, more a matter of living with it as best we can. yes science created a variety of vaccines - notwithstanding the views of the non vaxxers - but no matter what a great effort that was, its a bit like having passed your 11+ when we need a PhD or better to solve global warming or global poverty/famine.

Why?

Well, put simply, there was a will to solve COVID as it hit everyone, rich or poor, albeit in different degrees. A dead rich man smells just as bad as a dead poor one after a week.

To solve Global warming requires first defeating those who are profiting (short termist but enough for them) from the very causes of global warming. These vested interests are immensely wealthy and with wealth comes enormous power. They will nod and smile to Greta's face, but behind closed doors.... To complicate it still further, those rich and powerful vested interests are not just "captains of industry" or politicians - they are you and me, via our pension funds. To even start on this issue means a switch to ethical investments by the fund managers, and the acceptance by you me and everyone out there that yields will fall and perhaps 20% will be wiped off our pension values.

To solve poverty and famine, you need to reduce global population to a sustainable level. Lets say that should be 5 billion, not 7.7 billion as it stands. Don't ask me how as it still continues to rise at an alarming rate. Malthus had one way to cure this - but mass warfare isn't a socially acceptable way to regulate population growth and pandemics we seem to have got better at stopping: 4 - 5 million global deaths doesn't begin to make a hole in population growth. The core problem here is vested in mankind's inherent need to procreate - every living being has it preprogrammed, but we are allegedly sufficiently sentient to see the consequences, and, being at the top of the food chain, we have to be the self regulators. But we cannot / choose not to.

So call me a cynic, a pessimist or even maybe a realist. I will call you a dreamer, a fantasist, a hippy in your jester's hat with bells on. I hope the hell you are right, but I have serious doubts and cannot see beyond man's greed and self interest driving us deeper into the hole. After all the past 2 millenia of history have been driven by greed with no regard to sustainability: I cant see what will stop that runaway truck.

[ramAnag]

Lovely words RA, I wish I could feel the same way.
But lets be honest here, can you really see Russia/China/USA, then a whole host of smaller, but richer nations really adopting that?
No.neither can I.
But for some reason, there is an element in this country that insists we do more than anyone else to set an example, that everyone else ignores.

There in lies the conundrum. When we do this, to help the poor world, its our own poorer people who suffer more.

You do seem obsessed with us doing more than anyone else, Tricky. It’s a recurrent theme.
I don’t deny that I’m being idealistic, but I’m really not expecting us to do more than others...that’s not and never has been my point.

You and GP are probably right, I know that...and yes we’ll probably continue, as both a world and a nation, on the road to ruin because the majority - as exemplified by the majority and the two of you - will dismiss the alternative as being nothing more than idealistic, head in the clouds claptrap.

[Geoff Parkstone]

You do seem obsessed with us doing more than anyone else, Tricky. It’s a recurrent theme.
I don’t deny that I’m being idealistic, but I’m really not expecting us to do more than others...that’s not and never has been my point.

You and GP are probably right, I know that...and yes we’ll probably continue, as both a world and a nation, on the road to ruin because the majority - as exemplified by the majority and the two of you - will dismiss the alternative as being nothing more than idealistic, head in the clouds claptrap.

OK, go on then - present an alternate solution that we can buy in to. I'd love to be part of a solution, but you offer no solution beyond the "we can all work together" happy clappy claptrap. Work together and DO WHAT? You don't present an alternative solution, you present a loved up dream. Find one, I'll back you all the way

[ramAnag]

GP...which bit of ‘I don’t pretend to know’ and ‘I know I’m being idealistic’ do you not understand?
You accept that your own hard bitten survival of the fittest philosophy doesn’t end well. Recognition by world leaders of the need to stop ‘squabbling’ and engage in some compassionate joined up thought would be a start.
We’ve come close to that realisation where vaccines are concerned and it has to be the case with global warming...i.e. no point in worrying about electric cars in the UK if much larger countries are going to keep on pumping out fossil fuel based pollution...so why not elsewhere?

P.S. Going off at a bit of a tangent. It’s slightly ironic that your attitude of support for the underdog and contempt for the wealthy ‘big boys’ of the Premiership - survival of the fittest encapsulated - doesn’t extend beyond the relatively meaningless realms of football.

[Geoff Parkstone]

I think you need to reread my post 7542 - it is the haves and the wants that are hindering effective action against global warming. which I believe shows a contempt for the wealthy and the politically ambitious as regards their perspective on global warming.

As regards poverty and famine, you are correct, it will be survival of the fittest, especially when we start food wars after oil wars are consigned to history. If you have a rabbit hutch with 10 rabbits in it, and you have only one lettuce, what do you think is going to happen? Will the rabbits have 2 leaves each and all slowly starve, or will the biggest rabbit take 5 and let several of the others die quickly? If you think the former, then maybe re-read the second half of Animal Farm again!

[ramAnag]

I think you need to reread my post 7542 - it is the haves and the wants that are hindering effective action against global warming. which I believe shows a contempt for the wealthy and the politically ambitious as regards their perspective on global warming.

As regards poverty and famine, you are correct, it will be survival of the fittest, especially when we start food wars after oil wars are consigned to history. If you have a rabbit hutch with 10 rabbits in it, and you have only one lettuce, what do you think is going to happen? Will the rabbits have 2 leaves each and all slowly starve, or will the biggest rabbit take 5 and let several of the others die quickly? If you think the former, then maybe re-read the second half of Animal Farm again!

Okay...this feels like it’s just turned into the idealist being stalked by the iconoclast. It’s going nowhere and has nothing to do with the thread title...so let’s just agree to differ.

[Geoff Parkstone]

I really don't see this as stalking, but if that's your get out f jail free card, then fine. Yes it is a pragmatist trying to burst balloons of idealism.

As a long standing Irish friend of mine would say "you talk a good f XXX"

[Trickytreesreds]

You do seem obsessed with us doing more than anyone else, Tricky. It’s a recurrent theme.
I don’t deny that I’m being idealistic, but I’m really not expecting us to do more than others...that’s not and never has been my point.

You and GP are probably right, I know that...and yes we’ll probably continue, as both a world and a nation, on the road to ruin because the majority - as exemplified by the majority and the two of you - will dismiss the alternative as being nothing more than idealistic, head in the clouds claptrap.

I wouldn't say obsessed RA, I am and always will be, my closest first.
That probably puts me, in GP's bracket of things, but i can't help that.
I do agree with the population thing though and it has been raised before. the poorer countries just keep on breeding, where as in the west we seem to have adopted a smaller family mentality, based on what is comfortable.
I know it sounds like I'm picking on you, I'm not honest.
Your way would be wonderful, but I just can't see past the more you do, the more the greed kicks in from all angles.

[ramAnag]

I really don't see this as stalking, but if that's your get out f jail free card, then fine. Yes it is a pragmatist trying to burst balloons of idealism.

As a long standing Irish friend of mine would say "you talk a good f XXX"

Fair enough...it’s not a ‘get out of gaol free’ card, it just feels as if it’s going nowhere. You’re right about my ‘idealism’. In this situation I’ve accepted that more times than I care to remember...but where does your ‘pragmatism’ lead? We’re all *****d so let’s change nothing and keep on making the same stupid mistakes. How helpful is that?