O/T. The Government's handling of Covid

[Andy_Faber]

And you call me idealistic!
You’ve recognised that the vast majority of the electorate had insufficient knowledge to offer an informed opinion/vote but now claim that the ‘silent majority’ - aka in this case actual minority - ‘found their voice’.
You make it sound almost heroic, but as has been pointed out...that just isn’t true.
I won’t use the emotive and self defeating term ‘idiots’ but, substituting some combination of the words, naive, gullible, misguided, easily led and prejudiced, Swale is spot on...all that has happened is that we are more isolated than at any time in living memory and we have indeed surrendered governance of this country into ‘the hands of incompetent self serving fools’.

As you might guess, I don't agree

The vast majority of the electorate DID have sufficient knowledge to offer an informed opinion, that knowledge was that the issues and potential outcomes hadn't been made clear and based on that their opinion SHOULD have been 'The issues and outcomes aren't clear enough, therefore I will vote for the status quo'.

HOWEVER, such rationality never came into it. The population were given a vote and did with it what they wished

some of your descriptions of those who voted (in both directions) may be accurate (certainly more so than Lord Swale's bile) but you clearly didn't/don't get out enough to realise there was (and still is) a genuine unrest with 'the way things are' amongst what is still the biggest demographic group in the country, who, not wanting to go on wrecking sprees such as we saw last year, see their 'moment' as being at the ballot box not, for instance, Bristol Harbour.

[ramAnag]

As you might guess, I don't agree

The vast majority of the electorate DID have sufficient knowledge to offer an informed opinion, that knowledge was that the issues and potential outcomes hadn't been made clear and based on that their opinion SHOULD have been 'The issues and outcomes aren't clear enough, therefore I will vote for the status quo'.

HOWEVER, such rationality never came into it. The population were given a vote and did with it what they wished

some of your descriptions of those who voted (in both directions) may be accurate (certainly more so than Lord Swale's bile) but you clearly didn't/don't get out enough to realise there was (and still is) a genuine unrest with 'the way things are' amongst what is still the biggest demographic group in the country, who, not wanting to go on wrecking sprees such as we saw last year, see their 'moment' as being at the ballot box not, for instance, Bristol Harbour.

Oh, I get out enough, AF. Probably just mix in different circles.
I’m still trying to reconcile your point of a few posts ago...when you described people coming to you to find out how to find out more, with the statement... ‘the vast majority of the population DID have sufficient knowledge’.
Clearly, if they were coming to you to ask how to find out more, they didn’t have sufficient knowledge and I doubt that the a large proportion of those who voted for Brexit would have been found within your peer group anyway.

As regards Bristol Harbour...if you really want to confuse two distinct political campaign groups...let’s not pretend that the post Referendum behaviour of certain victorious Brexiteers was acceptable either. It also had nothing whatsoever to do with the ballot box.

[Andy_Faber]

Oh, I get out enough, AF. Probably just mix in different circles.
I’m still trying to reconcile your point of a few posts ago...when you described people coming to you to find out how to find out more, with the statement... ‘the vast majority of the population DID have sufficient knowledge’.
Clearly, if they were coming to you to ask how to find out more, they didn’t have sufficient knowledge and I doubt that the a large proportion of those who voted for Brexit would have been found within your peer group anyway.

As regards Bristol Harbour...if you really want to confuse two distinct political campaign groups...let’s not pretend that the post Referendum behaviour of certain victorious Brexiteers was acceptable either. It also had nothing whatsoever to do with the ballot box.

I mix in many circles rA, see below, 'peer group'

My two comments are consistent. The former referred to a few people (I'm trying hard not to be elitest with this comment, bear with me and see also below) who maybe didn't have the intellect, the awareness or the time to make a positive decision about which way to vote BUT wanted to make a positive decision.
the latter was referring to the population as a whole. I'm a patient bloke, prepared to share what insight I have, but I'm not Martin bloody Lewis

My 'peer' group is a strange one - a small circle of close friends in roughly my social 'stratum' and thousands of folk I meet through my hobby interest who are significantly more (to use the antiquated phrase) 'working class'. Their world-view is very different to mine, and spending many a friday night between bands listening to them hold court (and watching them drink, Jeeez) had been an education to me. I only know for certain of two that voted Remain in the latter group

Regarding the 'post Referendum behaviour of certain victorious Brexiteers' please elaborate

[ramAnag]

I mix in many circles rA, see below, 'peer group'

My two comments are consistent. The former referred to a few people (I'm trying hard not to be elitest with this comment, bear with me and see also below) who maybe didn't have the intellect, the awareness or the time to make a positive decision about which way to vote BUT wanted to make a positive decision.
the latter was referring to the population as a whole. I'm a patient bloke, prepared to share what insight I have, but I'm not Martin bloody Lewis

My 'peer' group is a strange one - a small circle of close friends in roughly my social 'stratum' and thousands of folk I meet through my hobby interest who are significantly more (to use the antiquated phrase) 'working class'. Their world-view is very different to mine, and spending many a friday night between bands listening to them hold court (and watching them drink, Jeeez) had been an education to me. I only know for certain of two that voted Remain in the latter group

Regarding the 'post Referendum behaviour of certain victorious Brexiteers' please elaborate

I’m sure you do. Me too.

There are however many people who don’t ‘have the intellect, the awareness or the time’ - your words not mine - to reach an informed decision and that brings into the question the validity of referendums, even challenges democracy itself, imo.
I think I’ve spoken before of an experience I had in a polling station when a man and his daughter in front of me needed help with putting their cross in the correct place.
Maybe I am being elitist...I’m not entirely sure what the answer is, but if people need help with something so simple how likely is it that they’ve grasped the complexities of what they’re voting for?

As regards elaborating on the post Referendum behaviour of certain Brexiteers...you’re willing to decry the behaviour of some BLM supporters over issues such as the statue of Colston in Bristol...but you seem to have forgotten the way in which foreigners were treated by certain (probably a minority of) Brexiteers as they celebrated Brexit. To be conspicuously foreign...particularly Polish or, more bizarrely, of Asian appearance in the wake of Brexit was not an experience you would have welcomed in many towns and cities.

[Andy_Faber]

you seem to have forgotten the way in which foreigners were treated by certain (probably a minority of) Brexiteers as they celebrated Brexit. To be conspicuously foreign...particularly Polish or, more bizarrely, of Asian appearance in the wake of Brexit was not an experience you would have welcomed in many towns and cities.

I wouldn't describe your response as elaborating, but anyway: No I haven't at all forgotten, in fact I recall we had this discussion a couple of years ago. You know what a stickler for 'provenance' of accusations I am, but on this occasion I didn't need to do the 'legwork' on provenance I usually do, the Beeb did it for me!

'The way in which Foreigners were treated' was never especially drilled down into until (bless 'em) the BBC did some investigating on the subject as part of a series similar to 'More Or Less' but focussing on non-numeric public perception of significant events. The investigation found that although there was some low-level abuse at the time it was not Brexit related (not to say there's any excuse for it I will add), and that the two high-profile incidents, both described as 'Brexit-related murders' at the time were anything but. Of the two, the one I recall was the 'unprovoked' killing of Arkad Jozwik, which the dailies went Brexit-xenophobe-bonkers on, pointing the finger straight at 'post-Brexit hate', and winding the Polish community both here and in Poland up so much there were marches asking for 'Justice for Arkad'.

Turned out the Pole started the incident with an unprovoked drunken rant, and he just picked on the wrong fellah to rant at, the perp was a known (to the Police) violent offender. The trial noted it as NOT being a hate crime.

Many independant reports you can find around the net note that there was less interest in the incident, including the trial, once it was clear it wasn't a Brexit/hate related attack

[ramAnag]

I wouldn't describe your response as elaborating, but anyway: No I haven't at all forgotten, in fact I recall we had this discussion a couple of years ago. You know what a stickler for 'provenance' of accusations I am, but on this occasion I didn't need to do the 'legwork' on provenance I usually do, the Beeb did it for me!

'The way in which Foreigners were treated' was never especially drilled down into until (bless 'em) the BBC did some investigating on the subject as part of a series similar to 'More Or Less' but focussing on non-numeric public perception of significant events. The investigation found that although there was some low-level abuse at the time it was not Brexit related (not to say there's any excuse for it I will add), and that the two high-profile incidents, both described as 'Brexit-related murders' at the time were anything but. Of the two, the one I recall was the 'unprovoked' killing of Arkad Jozwik, which the dailies went Brexit-xenophobe-bonkers on, pointing the finger straight at 'post-Brexit hate', and winding the Polish community both here and in Poland up so much there were marches asking for 'Justice for Arkad'.

Turned out the Pole started the incident with an unprovoked drunken rant, and he just picked on the wrong fellah to rant at, the perp was a known (to the Police) violent offender. The trial noted it as NOT being a hate crime.

Many independant reports you can find around the net note that there was less interest in the incident, including the trial, once it was clear it wasn't a Brexit/hate related attack

I’m sorry, Andy...I obviously misunderstood your need for clarification and elaboration, and I wasn’t referring at all to the ‘Brexit related murders’ you speak of.

Anyway...if you won’t believe me maybe you’ll take more notice of the Nottingham University NICEP paper on ‘The Brexit Referendum and the rise of hate crime; conforming to the new norm.’

Amongst other things it provides evidence of the spike in hate crime in the immediate aftermath of the Referendum and how, despite a rise in populism throughout Europe, this rise appears to be ‘distinctive to the UK’.

I haven’t reproduced it here because it’s about seventy pages long. I’m sure you’ll be able to find it and it should give you plenty to ‘drill down’ into.

[Andy_Faber]

I’m sorry, Andy...I obviously misunderstood your need for clarification and elaboration, and I wasn’t referring at all to the ‘Brexit related murders’ you speak of.

Anyway...if you won’t believe me maybe you’ll take more notice of the Nottingham University NICEP paper on ‘The Brexit Referendum and the rise of hate crime; conforming to the new norm.’

Amongst other things it provides evidence of the spike in hate crime in the immediate aftermath of the Referendum and how, despite a rise in populism throughout Europe, this rise appears to be ‘distinctive to the UK’.

I haven’t reproduced it here because it’s about seventy pages long. I’m sure you’ll be able to find it and it should give you plenty to ‘drill down’ into.

Touche rA, that's a report I have on pdf and its a petty comprehensive piece of work, albeit I'd agree with TTR that it ignores the tendancy to report anything and everything as a hate crime

We seem to be off the OP again but it does back up an observation I've made many times, that BREXIT was one of a number of trigger points for those with pre-existing prejudices to become emboldened enough to share them, and by extension, in a small number of cases, to act on them

[Trickytreesreds]

I wouldn't describe your response as elaborating, but anyway: No I haven't at all forgotten, in fact I recall we had this discussion a couple of years ago. You know what a stickler for 'provenance' of accusations I am, but on this occasion I didn't need to do the 'legwork' on provenance I usually do, the Beeb did it for me!

'The way in which Foreigners were treated' was never especially drilled down into until (bless 'em) the BBC did some investigating on the subject as part of a series similar to 'More Or Less' but focussing on non-numeric public perception of significant events. The investigation found that although there was some low-level abuse at the time it was not Brexit related (not to say there's any excuse for it I will add), and that the two high-profile incidents, both described as 'Brexit-related murders' at the time were anything but. Of the two, the one I recall was the 'unprovoked' killing of Arkad Jozwik, which the dailies went Brexit-xenophobe-bonkers on, pointing the finger straight at 'post-Brexit hate', and winding the Polish community both here and in Poland up so much there were marches asking for 'Justice for Arkad'.

Turned out the Pole started the incident with an unprovoked drunken rant, and he just picked on the wrong fellah to rant at, the perp was a known (to the Police) violent offender. The trial noted it as NOT being a hate crime.

Many independant reports you can find around the net note that there was less interest in the incident, including the trial, once it was clear it wasn't a Brexit/hate related attack

h
HERE'S SOME LIGHT READING FOR YOU. tHE INCIDENT YOU NAME IS THE FIRST EXAMPLE.
http://csi.nuff.ox.ac.uk/wp-content/...hate-crime.pdf


By the figures, "hate crime " rose after Brexit and Manchester.
By really, did it?
By the reports own admission, facts/details are sketchey at best.

For the record, a hate crime gets logged, by a simeple complaint on phone. No investigation/ no evidence/ no crime.
I could phone up and tell the crime line, I had been called a "honkey" by a coloured car driver.
No name/witnesses/number plate, anything. ]
But a hate crime it is.
Make of that what you want.