Quote Originally Posted by Geoff Parkstone View Post
You do have an interestingly short termist view of everything rA. We have not "surrendered governance of the country..." but we have for the time being got the "fools" as you describe them (whether I agree with the description is irrelevant here). A surrender of governance (or government?) is a way more serious issue which, if anything, we did back in 1973 without realising it as it wasnt on the agenda at the time.

Said group of fools have been in power since 2010, when Brexit was just a conceptual babe in arms and then very much a non political / cross political party question. The surrender is in fact down to incompetent domestic opposition failing to wrest power, or even put up a semi decent fight to regain power. You are just blaming Brexit for what you see as an unacceptable domestic political situation because it suits your agenda.

In fact brexit was always an issue splitting the major parties, before, during and after the referendum. Neither party seemed to want to become the party of brexit (or remain) - here I ignore the Libdems as an irrelevance - until the conservatives either (a) stood up to the plate to deliver the nations need, (b) acted whilst others dithered (c) risked alienating their own MPs / Membership / support by selecting a side to support and labour (a) were indecisive and concerned about loss of support whichever way they jumped (b) were never going to be pro brexit as the tories had grabbed that ground etc etc. We all know the arguments.

so no, we have not lost governance but we may have been subject to a short term opportunistic power grab: the Tories paying the game better than Labour who dithered
No problem with that last sentence, GP. You’re absolutely right...the Brexiteer Tories have ‘played the game’ better than anyone all the way through. Maybe others thought it was more than just a ‘game’.

The ‘said group of fools’ have not been in power since 2010 however.
Yes...the Tories, or initially the Tories and the Lib/Dems, have been in power for the last eleven plus years...but what we have now bears no resemblance to what was elected in 2010 or, for that matter, what we had under Theresa May.
What we have now is the most ruthless right wing government since Thatcher who’s only area of competence has been in the ‘short term opportunistic power grab’ you describe.
It just saddens me that you should find anything admirable in that.

P.S. I can entirely see MA’s point regarding the possible political end game of a Federal Europe. The point is...those sentiments of his were uttered almost half a century ago. Surely those who wished for an economic union rather than the loss of national identity could have argued that case sensibly in the intervening period. It is also interesting that he, out of all of us, is the one who has chosen to build a life in Europe and, unless I’m mistaken, is possibly the most balanced contributor on here while still the third most outspoken critic of Brexit.