O/T. The Government's handling of Covid

[Andy_Faber]

Have to differ, AF. Of course there’s an element of ‘looking after #1’ I appreciate that completely, but if we just subscribe to the ‘survival of the fittest’ mentality then forget donations to charity, forget helping those less fortunate than ourselves, forget altruism (philosophically flawed that one I accept) and forget looking after the sick and the old.
Wouldn’t fit into your Christian philosophy terribly well and I don’t imagine that’s really what you believe...anymore than you agree with Roger Waters’ (the writer’s) words, ‘I’m alright Jack, keep your hands off my stack.’

IMO Its all a question of degree rA, and I'd put Looking After Number 1 as a point on the scale of survival of the fittest. Currently 'we' don't subscribe to genuine survival of the fittest because 'we' don't need to, unlike the Africans hacking compatriots to death at a flour drop recently (Euronews) - likewise 'we' are charitable/altruistic because it doesn't really'hurt' our lives to do so. 'We' are just too affluent to be put to the test as individuals. However, IMO nations are moving more quickly than individuals - great example, and I quote directly from the BBC news article

''Greece has completed a 40km (25-mile) fence and surveillance system on its border with Turkey amid concerns over a surge of migrants from Afghanistan.

"We cannot wait, passively, for the possible impact," Greece's Citizens' Protection Minister Michalis Chrisochoidis said on a visit to the region of Evros on Friday.

"Our borders will remain inviolable."

Thats the lovely Greece moving down the scale, 20 years ago the biggest problem immigrants into Greece had was that no-one took any notice of them

[ramAnag]

IMO Its all a question of degree rA, and I'd put Looking After Number 1 as a point on the scale of survival of the fittest. Currently 'we' don't subscribe to genuine survival of the fittest because 'we' don't need to, unlike the Africans hacking compatriots to death at a flour drop recently (Euronews) - likewise 'we' are charitable/altruistic because it doesn't really'hurt' our lives to do so. 'We' are just too affluent to be put to the test as individuals. However, IMO nations are moving more quickly than individuals - great example, and I quote directly from the BBC news article

''Greece has completed a 40km (25-mile) fence and surveillance system on its border with Turkey amid concerns over a surge of migrants from Afghanistan.

"We cannot wait, passively, for the possible impact," Greece's Citizens' Protection Minister Michalis Chrisochoidis said on a visit to the region of Evros on Friday.

"Our borders will remain inviolable."

Thats the lovely Greece moving down the scale, 20 years ago the biggest problem immigrants into Greece had was that no-one took any notice of them

Sorry Andy...my point was specifically in response to MA’s observation about the situation in the Netherlands with Covid.
Your points about migrants, fences and border surveillance systems are all worthwhile I’m sure...but are nothing to do with the original issue.
MA describes a situation where Covid is growing within the the poorer, probably more overcrowded, areas in one of Europe’s most densely populated countries.
To me it illustrates the need to ensure everyone is vaccinated because ‘no one is safe until everyone is safe’.
If the growing situation in Holland - and possibly here - is replicated around the World we will soon be back to square one.
Covid hasn’t gone away and, as a personal example, in the last five weeks five (two adults and three children) of my immediate family have all been diagnosed with Covid.
From both a moral and a self preservation point of view we have to ensure that as many as possible of the World’s poor are properly vaccinated asap imo. That was my one and only point but, as ever, two people seek to misconstrue that simple suggestion to suit their own agendas.

As regards ‘Dastardly and Muttley’...I really can’t be bothered anymore. I have so many better things to do than respond to their dialogue destroying infantile malice. I can do banter and barbed comments with the best of them but that isn’t what I joined this forum for so I’ll just ignore the pair of them until things change.

[Andy_Faber]

From both a moral and a self preservation point of view we have to ensure that as many as possible of the World’s poor are properly vaccinated asap imo. .

Morally - agree

Self preservation, don’t agree, inasmuch as I believe the nation by nation approach has saved calamity so far. Imagine if vaccination had been truly equitable worldwide - assuming we did an oldest first rollout, we might just about be finishing the over 70s now, maybe not even that. So now think of your family members, most of which I’m guessing wouldn’t be vaccinated on the above basis. Now think what their outcomes might have been.

[ramAnag]

Morally - agree

Self preservation, don’t agree, inasmuch as I believe the nation by nation approach has saved calamity so far. Imagine if vaccination had been truly equitable worldwide - assuming we did an oldest first rollout, we might just about be finishing the over 70s now, maybe not even that. So now think of your family members, most of which I’m guessing wouldn’t be vaccinated on the above basis. Now think what their outcomes might have been.

Family members...both adults thankfully, but worryingly, fully vaccinated. They are just two of a number of people I know or know of who have contracted Covid despite being fully vaccinated.

I do take your point about the roll out...but what I am saying is that NOW is the time to concentrate extra effort on vaccinating those who, for what ever reason - and poverty, isolation and ignorance will be major factors - have fallen through the net.

[Andy_Faber]

Family members...both adults thankfully, but worryingly, fully vaccinated. They are just two of a number of people I know or know of who have contracted Covid despite being fully vaccinated.

I do take your point about the roll out...but what I am saying is that NOW is the time to concentrate extra effort on vaccinating those who, for what ever reason - and poverty, isolation and ignorance will be major factors - have fallen through the net.

Not sure if you mean U.K. people or worldwide

[ramAnag]

Not sure if you mean U.K. people or worldwide

I mean both the UK and worldwide. I suspect you’ll find what, for want of a better expression, is an underclass of people in the UK and across Europe who have not been vaccinated and I think it’s clear that there will be great swathes of Asia and Africa that remain unvaccinated.
Even those, and I’m not necessarily including you, who seem to think ‘**** the poor’ should recognise that their wealth ultimately fails to offer full protection against an airborne virus, so from both a selfish and a more all embracing point of view I believe that this is where the emphasis must lie.
As for the anti vaxxers...I’m not sure what you do, but I’d be inclined, in the short term at least, to make their full participation in society as difficult as possible. Unfortunately I gather the Government is likely to be abandoning social distancing measures altogether in the near future which, imo, is a very unwise thing to suggest. Quell surprise.

[Andy_Faber]

an underclass of people in the UK and across Europe who have not been vaccinated.

I don’t get that assertion rA. Anyone legally in-country will have the credentials to register for vaccination, whatever ‘class’ they are. Define ‘underclass’ in U.K. terms