Matchday Thread: Brizzle v Rams

[Geoff Parkstone]

Something else I didn't realise - the academy is also in administration and owes a million to HMRC, plus other stuff which probably duplicates debt in the clubs statement of affairs.

Also both the club and the academy made furlough claims thoughout 2021 according to HMRC transparency disclosure for (I assume) non football staff. I really hope that the companies have paid HMRC the tax/NI deductions in respect of those furloughed staff wages since the furlough revenue covers gross wages. If not, I don't see HMRC being well disposed to a plea for clemency.

[Andy_Faber]

Something else I didn't realise - the academy is also in administration and owes a million to HMRC, plus other stuff which probably duplicates debt in the clubs statement of affairs.

Also both the club and the academy made furlough claims thoughout 2021 according to HMRC transparency disclosure for (I assume) non football staff. I really hope that the companies have paid HMRC the tax/NI deductions in respect of those furloughed staff wages since the furlough revenue covers gross wages. If not, I don't see HMRC being well disposed to a plea for clemency.

I had noticed that (not being clever I just had), and the horrendous thought in my mind on that subject was that the Academy could be subject to a hostile (to fans) bid from another club, after all it’s just bricks and mortar and glorified pasture for the most part. Small change to, let’s say, Leicester City

[swaledale]

That’s why the words ‘relegated’ and ‘demotion’ were originally written in single quote inverted commas, GP.

Call it what you like, or just say ‘chucked out’ if you prefer...the impact is the same. Either way I’m struggling to believe we’ve gone from a twelve point penalty to a 21 point penalty - meaning almost guaranteed relegation - and now to talk of the ‘fifth tier’ in just a few months.
Punishment, imo, always has to be proportionate. Is it the Rams who cheated and are ‘reviled’ or those who were in charge at the time?
Having spoken up in favour of Morris for years I am shocked to discover the extent of the ‘wrongdoing’ but, when it comes to talk of punishment beyond the ruination of this season and certain relegation, shouldn’t it be those responsible who pay the price rather than the supporters and employees of Derby County who will, through no fault of their own, be the ones to suffer.

rA its not about being "chucked out" it may happen because the club Derby County would cease to exist as an entity if liquidation happens. Liquidation truly is the dissolution of a legal organisation, with all assets sold off to the highest bidder.

Then IF someone had the resources to rebuild a new club with a new name, then depending upon the financial standing of that new club and other factors which I don't fully understand it would start lower down the league pyramid.

So this isn't a case of the EFL or any other body punishing Derby, its just what could happen if a buyer isn't found to take the existing club on.

Its going to be a nervous few weeks for all fans, hoping the doomsday scenario doesn't happen, BUT unless someone buys the club its is possible.

[ramAnag]

"Hmmm. You don’t come from Derby or Derbyshire do you...don’t have much affinity with the place other than a vague association and affection for the club’s achievements during your late te enaffection for achievements do I. age/early adult years."

OOOOH the cat gets his claws out when in a corner

So I have only been supporting Derby for about 55 years and don't come from the area. So I just have a vague "late te en affection" do ? Ok I'm a plastic. I suppose on that basis you are a plastic rugby league fan since you don't live in an area with a lancashire rugby league team in it.

A future club in the local area may find itself in tier 5 or beyond? Yes that's harsh on everyone concerned, its not fair on those parties that are collateral damage, but you know what, those are the rules. Don't blame the rules, they are there for everyone to see. Blame the transgressors. But don't go burying your head in the sand to the possibility, crying in the corner saying its unfair: man up, deal with the possibility and consider what you can do about it should it come to it. How much would you invest in getting a new club going etc. That's the true test of plastic or real.

Lol...how the duck am I ‘in a corner’?

You made a silly observation about ‘the greater good’ and how if this is the ‘most unfair thing that happens in your life you’ll take it’.

Of course it’s not the worst thing that can happen but, imo, you are belittling the impact of what is happening to DCFC to those who are Derby through and through, which doesn’t btw include me, and who may end up as residents of one of the very few major cities in England without a major football team.

I’m not crying in any corner or burying my head in the sand and the phrase ‘man up’ is rather pathetically outdated. Neither have I called you a ‘plastic’, I’ve just suggested that you have little idea about the impact this is actually having on the local area and local people.

Btw, as regards being a plastic RL fan...it takes me 45 minutes to drive to Pride Park and 95 minutes to drive in the opposite direction to the home of my RL team. I seem to be able to manage both.

[Geoff Parkstone]

Its not a silly observation. Football is hurtling down a slope to financial ruin and unsustainability, with god know how many clubs teetering on the edge of being where we are. Whilst COVID hasnt helped, overspending on transfers and player wages is burdening all but the top few, supported by massively wealthy backers, with significant debt. It would only take a straw to break many camel's backs, such as an owners pulling cashflow support.

I'd be amazed if there were not many more clubs owing substantial sums to HMRC just hoping that something doesnt stop the mill from turning, allowing them to teem and lade PAYE/NIC payments. Our mill stopped and immediate consequences are plain for all to see.

What can be done to stop the headlong "rush to riin"? Clearly clubs in the main are going to continue to adopt this unsustainable strategy until they see a stark reason not to - such as a club tipping over the edge of the cliff and not being able to blag a huge discount on their debts. then lock, reload, go again.

So yes HMRC need to step up and let a club or two go into liquidation, which may stop other clubs playing fast and loose with taxpayers money - your and my money in effect. Its unfortunate that DCFC may be that club to be used to set an example, but we may be a lost cause anyway. So yes. some good can come of it for the game in general - albeit not for the fans of the guinea pig club.

Bt to avoid there being scores of "Derbys" over the coming years, something has to give, sadly maybe us.

Its wierd isnt it, here am I espousing the common good for all (socialist) philosophy, and you asserting the rights of the (tory) individual. Quite an about face on both our parts.

I see you dont like "man up", so OK, "person up"

[Andy_Faber]

Its not a silly observation. Football is hurtling down a slope to financial ruin and unsustainability, with god know how many clubs teetering on the edge of being where we are. Whilst COVID hasnt helped, overspending on transfers and player wages is burdening all but the top few, supported by massively wealthy backers, with significant debt. It would only take a straw to break many camel's backs, such as an owners pulling cashflow support.

I'd be amazed if there were not many more clubs owing substantial sums to HMRC just hoping that something doesnt stop the mill from turning, allowing them to teem and lade PAYE/NIC payments. Our mill stopped and immediate consequences are plain for all to see.

What can be done to stop the headlong "rush to riin"? Clearly clubs in the main are going to continue to adopt this unsustainable strategy until they see a stark reason not to - such as a club tipping over the edge of the cliff and not being able to blag a huge discount on their debts. then lock, reload, go again.

So yes HMRC need to step up and let a club or two go into liquidation, which may stop other clubs playing fast and loose with taxpayers money - your and my money in effect. Its unfortunate that DCFC may be that club to be used to set an example, but we may be a lost cause anyway. So yes. some good can come of it for the game in general - albeit not for the fans of the guinea pig club.

Bt to avoid there being scores of "Derbys" over the coming years, something has to give, sadly maybe us.

Its wierd isnt it, here am I espousing the common good for all (socialist) philosophy, and you asserting the rights of the (tory) individual. Quite an about face on both our parts.

I see you dont like "man up", so OK, "person up"

Nice use of Teem and Lade there GP

[ramAnag]

Its not a silly observation. Football is hurtling down a slope to financial ruin and unsustainability, with god know how many clubs teetering on the edge of being where we are. Whilst COVID hasnt helped, overspending on transfers and player wages is burdening all but the top few, supported by massively wealthy backers, with significant debt. It would only take a straw to break many camel's backs, such as an owners pulling cashflow support.

I'd be amazed if there were not many more clubs owing substantial sums to HMRC just hoping that something doesnt stop the mill from turning, allowing them to teem and lade PAYE/NIC payments. Our mill stopped and immediate consequences are plain for all to see.

What can be done to stop the headlong "rush to riin"? Clearly clubs in the main are going to continue to adopt this unsustainable strategy until they see a stark reason not to - such as a club tipping over the edge of the cliff and not being able to blag a huge discount on their debts. then lock, reload, go again.

So yes HMRC need to step up and let a club or two go into liquidation, which may stop other clubs playing fast and loose with taxpayers money - your and my money in effect. Its unfortunate that DCFC may be that club to be used to set an example, but we may be a lost cause anyway. So yes. some good can come of it for the game in general - albeit not for the fans of the guinea pig club.

Bt to avoid there being scores of "Derbys" over the coming years, something has to give, sadly maybe us.

Its wierd isnt it, here am I espousing the common good for all (socialist) philosophy, and you asserting the rights of the (tory) individual. Quite an about face on both our parts.

I see you dont like "man up", so OK, "person up"

I’m sure much of that makes sense, GP...and allows you and Andy to speak the secret language of accountancy too. Well done you.
Unfortunately, the first five words and final sentence apart, it has virtually nothing to do with the points I made in the post you were, I think, replying to.

P.S. I don’t actually have strong feelings about expressions like ‘man up’. I just think it’s ‘dinosaur speak’ that gives people away and makes me laugh. The males of the species have always been generally the physically stronger and will, in all likelihood, continue to be so, beyond that I’ve come to recognise that, in terms of mental and emotional strength etc, it’s invariably a delusional term most frequently used by slightly sad old men.

[Geoff Parkstone]

"I’m sure much of that makes sense, GP...and allows you and Andy to speak the secret language of accountancy too. Well done you.
Unfortunately, the first five words and final sentence apart, it has virtually nothing to do with the points I made in the post you were, I think, replying to."

I'm afraid that I cant help it if you cannot see a connection. I've explained it as simply as I can. (PS teeming and lading means using one persons money to pay another. not unlike a Ponzi)

[ramAnag]

"I’m sure much of that makes sense, GP...and allows you and Andy to speak the secret language of accountancy too. Well done you.
Unfortunately, the first five words and final sentence apart, it has virtually nothing to do with the points I made in the post you were, I think, replying to."

I'm afraid that I cant help it if you cannot see a connection. I've explained it as simply as I can. (PS teeming and lading means using one persons money to pay another. not unlike a Ponzi)

Lol...I know, I looked it up.

If you can see a connection between your accountancy lesson and your failure to understand the feelings and fears in Derby and Derbyshire at the moment - which was my point that you had a little moment about - then so be it. I can’t.

To reiterate...I have no doubt your comments about the financial difficulties facing many football clubs are well founded. You know about stuff like that.
Equally, your comments regularly betray a lack of understanding of how important the Rams are to Derby and Derbyshire. Derby is, as Brian Clough told us all, a ‘football town’ and it matters.

Like you, I wasn’t born and bred here. Unlike you I’ve lived and worked in the area for well over forty years...I have children and grandchildren for whom Derby County means a great deal and have a somewhat greater understanding of what it means to local people for whom a love (and despair) for the club has been passed down through the generations.

IMO the fate of football clubs should transcend the wrongdoings of wealthy owners and I’d feel the same way even if it was Forest.
It seems to be that way with banks...the rest I’ve said before and there’s actually more happening today on another thread that you seem to be avoiding for some strange reason.

[swaledale]

Lol...I know, I looked it up.

If you can see a connection between your accountancy lesson and your failure to understand the feelings and fears in Derby and Derbyshire at the moment - which was my point that you had a little moment about - then so be it. I can’t.

To reiterate...I have no doubt your comments about the financial difficulties facing many football clubs are well founded. You know about stuff like that.
Equally, your comments regularly betray a lack of understanding of how important the Rams are to Derby and Derbyshire. Derby is, as Brian Clough told us all, a ‘football town’ and it matters.

Like you, I wasn’t born and bred here. Unlike you I’ve lived and worked in the area for well over forty years...I have children and grandchildren for whom Derby County means a great deal and have a somewhat greater understanding of what it means to local people for whom a love (and despair) for the club has been passed down through the generations.

IMO the fate of football clubs should transcend the wrongdoings of wealthy owners and I’d feel the same way even if it was Forest.
It seems to be that way with banks...the rest I’ve said before and there’s actually more happening today on another thread that you seem to be avoiding for some strange reason.

You make a valid point rA with respect to the emotional and sentimental value of Derby County as a football club, however, I have to say that GP is explaining clearly the business side of things and the club is just that legally a business and if it fails due to mismanagement, it will cease to exist.

Indeed as a taxpayer I'd have to say GP's sentiments are correct, I don't see how you can argue a special case for Derby, yet bemoan other organisations or individuals escaping paying the tax thats due. I personally object to HMRC being used as a informal loan service to prop up unsustainable management of any football club or any other business.

Yes the impact on people will be great, but then many of those people were perhaps not voicing concerns when the club under Morris' ownership paying large transfer fees for players and equally high wages. Nor might I add were the majority of the players worried about what their salary demands might have on the sustainability of the club.