Dens Park

[Returnofrros]

Unless that is there and I just can't see it.

[Returnofrros]

Happy with this thread Rross. Maybe going over the arguments will bring forward a positive decision to stay at Dens? DFCSS still around, club in top division, no grant repayment penalty if Dens is bought by the DFC BoD. Think the 1893 Foundation must have been a pleasant surprise for our owners.
Try to find compelling business plan that shows tweaking Dens is viable option.

I don't see it as an argument as such..... despite my background this stuff bores the pants AFF me I don't have the attention span for the details....hey but you can still become PM like that with no attention to detail 😁

I'm glad there are guys out there though that do have that mindset and if 2 or 3 of them post stuff on here I'm more than happy to listen.

As I said staying at a redeveloped Dens of sorts is a heart thing for me.....not near clever enough to suggest how to do it.....I just refuse to accept it's impossible.

[BCram]

I enclose the latest Dundee Football Club Limited annual accounts for the year ending 31st May 2020 and suggest that you read
Item 13 - Operating Leases which lists the rent paid in the current and previous financial years plus the rental payable for the next five years and the outstanding total for the remainder of the Stadium rental period. https://d1ssu070pg2v9i.cloudfront.ne...unt-201920.pdf
According to the annual accounts for the year ending 31st May 2019 the annual rent payable in 2018 was £65k, 2019 was £71k, 2020 was £78k.
This equates to a total annual rent payable to Sandeman Properties from 2018 -2020 of £214,000.
Meanwhile Dundee Football Club Limited are still responsible for any repairs and improvements to Dens Park.
In my opinion this is a ridiculous waste of money which could have been spent on other things such as the player budget if John Nelms had taken up the business case for the buy back of Dens Park.

Suppose they buy back Dens. No idea what it might cost but it will relate to the rental income. If £75k represented a return of 10% then the value of Dens might be £750k. That's a really low price for an asset that might cost 10 to 20 times more to reinstate.The price will also reflect the state of the premises. The new stands are up to a good standard, so the mainer and the SE could be developed overtime depending on funding. Most Football clubs are losing money so how is the funding for rebuilding them going to be generated?
The last time we discussed this I was keen to support the new stadium.
The economics seem to have been changed by covid. The case for an additional Crematorium could be weaker and the retail elements might also seem weaker. The hotel element might also seem weaker. Housing depends on demand and here there appears to me to be considerable pressure to supply more houses so this element might be a significant plus. The city has built the sports complex at Caird Park. Do we really need additional facilities? By staying at Dens the only thing that makes sense is to put in an artificial pitch and try to boost the use of the Stadium.

[islaydarkblue]

Yes thanks

I know what's there but what happens if they just ignore it? That's what I'm trying to get at........and only if it's just your opinion I'm interested.

What happens in the scenario I've outlined?

FPS who have majority ownership of Dundee Football Club Limited would be in breach of a rule in the Dundee Football Club Limited articles of association. Rules are put in place to ensure that everyone abides by them

[islaydarkblue]

Suppose they buy back Dens. No idea what it might cost but it will relate to the rental income. If £75k represented a return of 10% then the value of Dens might be £750k. That's a really low price for an asset that might cost 10 to 20 times more to reinstate.The price will also reflect the state of the premises. The new stands are up to a good standard, so the mainer and the SE could be developed overtime depending on funding. Most Football clubs are losing money so how is the funding for rebuilding them going to be generated?
The last time we discussed this I was keen to support the new stadium.
The economics seem to have been changed by covid. The case for an additional Crematorium could be weaker and the retail elements might also seem weaker. The hotel element might also seem weaker. Housing depends on demand and here there appears to me to be considerable pressure to supply more houses so this element might be a significant plus. The city has built the sports complex at Caird Park. Do we really need additional facilities? By staying at Dens the only thing that makes sense is to put in an artificial pitch and try to boost the use of the Stadium.

I have previously read on another forum that the price quoted back in 2015 to buy back Dens Park from Sandeman Properties was £850k.
However back them there was still the penalty clause in place that if Dens Park was sold by Sandeman Properties before November 2018
£1 Million would have be repaid per the rules of the Standard Security when the new stands were built in 1997.
With this £1 million penalty no longer in place I think that Dens Park might be sold for a lost less especially if it was sold to a Dundee supporters group.
I too have previously discussed this and I am sure that most of the people currently contributing a monthly donation to the 1893 Foundation would prefer their donation to go to a ring fenced fund for the buy back of Dens Park from Sandeman Properties.
I am certain that there are other Dundee supporters who do not make a monthly donation to the 1893 Foundation because they are unhappy that the money goes straight into the Dundee Football Club bank account to be spent on anything.
It has previously been stated that the 1893 Foundation raised £125k in its inaugural financial year.
A fund raising scheme for the buy back of Dens Park could use the Go Cardless scheme which would also allow overseas Dundee supporters to donate money in their own currency which is then converted into the £ Sterling.
The large Sports Centre which was to be a joint partnership between Dundee City Council, Dundee Football Club and Dundee United Football Club would have gone ahead if Ms Maggie Chapman of the Green Party had not put a ‘spanner in the works’ by complaining about some trees having to be demolished on the site of the proposed Sports Centre at Caird Park.
Ms Chapman is now a Green Party list MSP at Holyrood.
She is also guilty of double standards as there is no mention of her complaining about the new £32 Sports Centre at Caird Park built by Dundee City Council because it contains a ‘green’ district heating scheme.
However these ‘green’ district heating schemes are usually powered by burning wood pellets. It would be interesting to know how many of Ms Chapman’s precious trees have to be felled annually to power the ‘green’ district heating scheme beside the new Caird Park Sports Centre.
Bowmore Primary School on Islay is also heated by burning wood pellets on an industrial scale but none of the ‘green lobby’ ever tell us how many trees are felled to power these heating schemes throughout the year.

[Returnofrros]

FPS who have majority ownership of Dundee Football Club Limited would be in breach of a rule in the Dundee Football Club Limited articles of association. Rules are put in place to ensure that everyone abides by them

Getting there Islay.

But I'll have one more go.

They are in breach of rules.........and.......what happens then?

They shrug and say what you gonna do?

It's a court case?

They say fine we will wynd the thing up?

You can't force them to go back to stadium that's been flattened, you can't force them to build a stadium.......what would you forsee happening in that granted unlikely scenario.

[deecom]

Before the Scottish premier league started, Ian Gellatly , spent over £20,000 ponds on plans for an all seater stadium,
Long before any other Scottish club had thought of it.
If it was possible to revamp Dens Park at that time, don't see why it can't be done now.
Would be interesting to see those proposed plans now.
Even Ron Dixon had plans for an ice rink under the Derry.

[BCram]

Getting there Islay.

But I'll have one more go.

They are in breach of rules.........and.......what happens then?

They shrug and say what you gonna do?

It's a court case?

They say fine we will wynd the thing up?

You can't force them to go back to stadium that's been flattened, you can't force them to build a stadium.......what would you forsee happening in that granted unlikely scenario.

breach of the obligations provided within the articles of association will, usually, render the action taken void, whereas a breach of the obligations provided within a shareholders' agreement will give rise to a claim for breach of contract by the wronged party.
Think Islay is setting up for a wood burning diatribe. I hope so because I think that is a great topic.
Very simple Google answer given above. Classic lawyer speak using the word void. I think it just means they can't do it.
If FPS have 75% of the issued share capital I THINK FPS can rewrite the Articles of Association and alter the A share rights. DFCSS will know if that is correct. These were accepted by FPS when they took over the club.
I think your analysis of the likely outcome is perhaps too pessimistic. If there was a third pre-pack Administration to wind up the club I don't see what FPS gain. The authorities would undoubtedly throw DFC under a bus and make us start at the bottom of any league structure, which might be even lower than Rangers had to face. Where is there any benefit to them. I am assuming that SPFL will be very unwilling to help owners in a battle with supporters but maybe that is totally wrong.
Keep the entrenched rights, try to get DFCSS on the same wavelength as FPS and encourage a buy back Dens programme with DFCSS and all supporters groups and fans involved.

[islaydarkblue]

breach of the obligations provided within the articles of association will, usually, render the action taken void, whereas a breach of the obligations provided within a shareholders' agreement will give rise to a claim for breach of contract by the wronged party.
Think Islay is setting up for a wood burning diatribe. I hope so because I think that is a great topic.
Very simple Google answer given above. Classic lawyer speak using the word void. I think it just means they can't do it.
If FPS have 75% of the issued share capital I THINK FPS can rewrite the Articles of Association and alter the A share rights. DFCSS will know if that is correct. These were accepted by FPS when they took over the club.
I think your analysis of the likely outcome is perhaps too pessimistic. If there was a third pre-pack Administration to wind up the club I don't see what FPS gain. The authorities would undoubtedly throw DFC under a bus and make us start at the bottom of any league structure, which might be even lower than Rangers had to face. Where is there any benefit to them. I am assuming that SPFL will be very unwilling to help owners in a battle with supporters but maybe that is totally wrong.
Keep the entrenched rights, try to get DFCSS on the same wavelength as FPS and encourage a buy back Dens programme with DFCSS and all supporters groups and fans involved.

Sadly I am not a lawyer but if my brother had still been alive I would have asked him these questions on ‘family rates’.
I do not think that FPS can change the entrenched rights of the A shares without agreement by the Dee4life Trust members.
I agree with everything you say in your final sentence but getting the Dee4life Trust Primary representative on the board of directors of Dundee Football Club Limited under the entrenched rights of the A shares has proved impossible since the previous Dee4life Trust Primary representative resigned on 1st April 2017.

[islaydarkblue]

Getting there Islay.

But I'll have one more go.

They are in breach of rules.........and.......what happens then?

They shrug and say what you gonna do?

It's a court case?

They say fine we will wynd the thing up?

You can't force them to go back to stadium that's been flattened, you can't force them to build a stadium.......what would you forsee happening in that granted unlikely scenario.

The last thing that anyone wants to do is end up with a court case which would likely prove expensive for both sides.
However this morning there is a topic on another Dundee FC forum which stated that Arbroath FC have been in touch with Dundee FC about the possibility of them ground sharing at Dens Park in the event of them winning promotion to the Premier League next season.