O/T:- ⚠️Impressed with the leadership [The UK Party Politics Thread]

[jackal2]

Disagree. If it is proved masks that are effective against containing the virus (pick your own Googled 'proof' either way) then it has to be a legal requirement. I absolutely hate wearing the bloody things, but common sense tells me they can either do good or do nothing. I just don't see how they can have an adverse effect, so as annoying as they are we should take the safe option. I liken it to the wearing of seat belts and obeying speed limits when driving. Since both were made law the number of road fatalities has declined. Do you also think that wearing a seat belt and sticking to the speed limit should be a matter of personal choice?

A mischievous question, but I think the benefits of wearing seat belts are far more comprehensively proven than the benefits of wearing masks, which are still a bone of considerable contention even amongst some medical experts. And I'm saying that as someone who chooses to wear mine in certain places, as I've stated above, so I'm not coming from a position of bias against masks.

I suspect there is far more consensus amongst the public about the law regarding seatbelts than some of the restrictions around Covid, including mask-wearing, and good laws are usually the ones that have broad public consent and thus willing compliance from most. Ultimately, if large numbers of otherwise law-abiding people decide a particular law is unfair or unnecessary and choose to disregard it, then it becomes difficult to police anyway. There was broad public consensus over the restrictions imposed during the first lockdown, but I think the public view now is far more nuanced, which is where advice rather than imposition becomes the best way forward.

Sometimes it goes the other way too, where the Government fails to create or change law despite a broad public consensus that it should. For instance, I'm in favour of assisted dying, as are three in four Britons apparently, but successive Governments have failed to reflect this by revisiting that area of law, despite multiple opportunities.

[jackal2]

It’s nothing to do with dictators it’s a question of do I go to the pub on New Years Eve or not? If so how do I exercise ‘caution’?

I'm saying the decision on whether to go to the pub should be your choice. You're saying you want it to be dictated to you by a Boris Johnson Government. It's a funny old world!

To the government, the big difference between advice and shutting places down is that if they do it compulsorily they have to pay out, which I think is probably what a low taxation ideologue like Sunak wants to avoid. Typically short term thinking.

Rishi Sunak hasn't been looking like a low tax ideologue so far during his Chancellorship. Granted, he's had little choice but to spend big given the circumstances of the first phase of the pandemic, but if he's now exercising caution with the public purse to avoid placing a massive tax burden on people for years to come, then that's not short-term thinking in my book.

[Elite_Pie]

A mischievous question, but I think the benefits of wearing seat belts are far more comprehensively proven than the benefits of wearing masks, which are still a bone of considerable contention even amongst some medical experts.

True, that's why I added "Google your own proof". I've never seen anything to say that masks help to spread the virus (although it's probably out there somewhere if you look hard enough!), so I think we should err on the side of caution until we get an answer.

Sometimes it goes the other way too, where the Government fails to create or change law despite a broad public consensus that it should. For instance, I'm in favour of assisted dying, as are three in four Britons apparently, but successive Governments have failed to reflect this by revisiting that area of law, despite multiple opportunities.

Couldn't agree more on that one. One of my biggest dreads is that the end of my time comes because of some illness where I have no quality of life, and what it would do to my family watching me suffer. If a new law came out giving me the option to allow me to end my life when I chose to, I would sign up in a heartbeat.

[Old_pie]

If a new law came out giving me the option to allow me to end my life when I chose to, I would sign up in a heartbeat.

I didn't think committing suicide was illegal. What are they going to do, fine you?

[Elite_Pie]

I didn't think committing suicide was illegal. What are they going to do, fine you?

Probably issue me with a warning about my future behaviour and offer me counselling.

[BigFatPie]

I'm saying the decision on whether to go to the pub should be your choice. You're saying you want it to be dictated to you by a Boris Johnson Government. It's a funny old world! .

Beautifully swerving the salient points with selective quoting as usual..

I’m sorry I forgot that reactionaries/right wing people/self confessed Conservatives rarely if ever discuss anything in good faith. Because obviously the decision to go to the pub is just the same as every other NYE when there isn’t a pandemic with a record breaking number of infections and rapidly rising hospitalisations. Silly me for asking.

[Maggie's Farm]

I'm saying the decision on whether to go to the pub should be your choice. You're saying you want it to be dictated to you by a Boris Johnson Government.

going to the pub in this context is highly likely to have serious consequences for some people, some families, and society in general.

isn't now a good time to think beyond party politics and self-interest?

[Elite_Pie]

Beautifully swerving the salient points with selective quoting as usual..

I’m sorry I forgot that reactionaries/right wing people/self confessed Conservatives rarely if ever discuss anything in good faith. Because obviously the decision to go to the pub is just the same as every other NYE when there isn’t a pandemic with a record breaking number of infections and rapidly rising hospitalisations. Silly me for asking.

I would like to offer an example as to what these "record breaking number of infections and rapidly rising hospitalisations" mean to the NHS in real terms. One of my daughters works as a nurse on an Oncology ward, she's newly qualified and has only been on the ward for 3 months. Her biggest problem isn't based on numbers in hospital due to Covid, it's about staff shortages due to Covid. Basically, although she's still a novice, she's had to take on responsibilities way above her grade because the bank staff sent to provide a skeleton crew don't have a clue. Yesterday, a man she was nursing who was facing his last hours couldn't be certified 'end of life' because no consultant or registrar was available to sign the paperwork. They were busy elsewhere. That meant the bloke had to take his last breath alone because protocols don't allow the family to be contacted unless it's officially termed end of life.

To put some perspective on it, she was on a 12 hour shift over Christmas which became a 13 hour shift because it took an hour to get a bank nurse to replace her on the night shift. Her annual salary is £28,610. She's in the process of buying her first house, but because the legal people keep saying "Sorry, we're short staffed due to Covid" it's taking months longer than it should. I wonder what their salary is compared to hers? I wonder what they would think if she said "Sorry, we can't treat your dying mum because of Covid".

Boris Johnson was full of praise for the NHS staff who kept him alive when he had Covid and made a point of clapping for them on the steps of Number 10, but then kicked them in the teeth by offering a below inflation payrise. That's why I despise the Tories with a passion.

[SmiffyPie]

I do apologise if this has been mentioned already ( I can't be arsed scrolling through the pointless drivel) but anyone that objects to wearing a face covering (unless they are medically excused (are they required to wear something to say so?)) is a complete selfish pratt! Never mind your self-opinionated rights you dickhead and have some consideration for others.

[Elite_Pie]

I do apologise if this has been mentioned already ( I can't be arsed scrolling through the pointless drivel) but anyone that objects to wearing a face covering (unless they are medically excused (are they required to wear something to say so?)) is a complete selfish pratt! Never mind your self-opinionated rights you dickhead and have some consideration for others.

I said pretty much the same a few posts back.