Who’s got or had covid?

[Dubbag]

I have read some stories over the last two years around the disease in papers and news media outlets.....a lot repeat the same thing...almost looks like paste and copy kind of stuff.
What I have definitely noticed over these past two years of the pandemic in the ICU setting is the following....

1.The vast majority of deaths were people with underling conditions already. But some hadn't.
2.The vast majority of deaths were over 60 years old. But not all were.
3.A very big proportion of deaths were with people with BMI much higher then warranted good healthy life style/living.

That appeared to be the case for the initial Wuhan strain in early 2020 and throughout the year until the Alpha variant (Kent).
The Alpha variant allowed for quicker transmission between people then the Wuhan strain.
But the effects became better understood by this stage and new approaches became available to treat the disease and help reduce the non ventilated patients from entering the ICU.

With Delta things definitely changed for the worse.
1. People on ventilators stayed on ventilators much much longer then with Alpha/Wuhan strain.
2. Younger people started to present into the hospital system and ended up on ventilators with deaths increasing in this age group. (30-50 year olds) Quite a lot of pregnant women who had not got vaccinated ended up in ICU from about September onward this year..
3. The discharge time for treating someone who was on a ventilator in the ICU with Delta ballooned. We have currently got people on life support for over 60 days now. Compare that with the initial strain where somebody may have been on a ventilator for a few days or a week at most.
With in the younger group, it is not clear weather there underling conditions contributed to this or the fact that a lot of people presenting were not vaccinated..
At one point out of 30 patients on our ward...nearly half were not vaccinated...those who were vaccinated many had underling conditions to begin with...

The picture is still foggy......and will remain so for some time to come.
My own experience was that I simply did to myself what we are doing to patients....prone...
That involves turning a patient on a ventilator on to there belly for about 16 hours and then turn back to supine. This has shown to have a big effect on your oxygenation and thus your breathing......it stops fluid pooling in your lungs.

On occasion we would get patients to the unit who did not need to be ventilated and remained self breathing...so we just ask them to prone and then after a few hours go back on there back...simple but made a hug difference.....we had teams that just did this all day.
Of course with a ventilated patient it is a little tricky as they have a breathing tube and lines attached to them....and you don't want to be losing any of them....

[Yarmbaggie]

Dubs can you clarify one point for me.

In the earlier post Baggieal says that the booster gives you no more protection against catching Covid than someone not vaccinated.

Surely this cannot be right?

I am sure I read in the BMJ in December that studies from Israel showed conclusively that people vaccinated we’re catching Covid at a lot lower rate than those not vaccinated. In addition those who were vaccinated were getting fewer problems from the virus.

I think the study was significant in numbers but from memory it did perhaps relate to the over 60s?

[baggieal]

Dubs can you clarify one point for me.

In the earlier post Baggieal says that the booster gives you no more protection against catching Covid than someone not vaccinated.

Surely this cannot be right?

I am sure I read in the BMJ in December that studies from Israel showed conclusively that people vaccinated we’re catching Covid at a lot lower rate than those not vaccinated. In addition those who were vaccinated were getting fewer problems from the virus.

I think the study was significant in numbers but from memory it did perhaps relate to the over 60s?

To re-clarify if it was not clear but thought it was - protection yes against illness but no more protection about catching the virus than someone who is not vaccinated. I know lots who have been infected with the Omicron with mild symptoms but all jabbed even with boosters. I also know lots who have had Omicron confirmed on lateral flows but not had official PCR tests - why would anyone unless there’s a benefit of making it official if they are self isolating? Yes there are benefits but also benefits of not making it official?

Biggest benefit to those non vaccinated who catch the virus and making it official - they have a 90 day pass even for overseas travel! Now one benefit of not making it official with travel even if vaccinated - some countries you can travel on a negative lateral flow where a PCR could still show positive.

Lots of clever thought!

PS - it’s ignorance that many think because they are treble jabbed they can’t pass on the virus. The safest people ( for 90 days ) are those who have had Covid but over the infectious period!

[WBA1955]

I know people who have been scared to go out for two years and won't let any visitor's in their homes.
That for me is worse than Covid.
I still go out to the pub and have a drink with friends.
The good news is that most of us will die of something else. At least it won't be worry and boredom.🙂

[SwedishBaggie]

I know people who have been scared to go out for two years and won't let any visitor's in their homes.
That for me is worse than Covid.
I still go out to the pub and have a drink with friends.
The good news is that most of us will die of something else. At least it won't be worry and boredom.🙂

So very true Des! 👌🏻

[baggieal]

I know people who have been scared to go out for two years and won't let any visitor's in their homes.
That for me is worse than Covid.
I still go out to the pub and have a drink with friends.
The good news is that most of us will die of something else. At least it won't be worry and boredom.🙂

That’s plain stupid Des. Stay in for a long period and your family/loved one could die anyway without saying goodbye!

It’s the U.K. press and their scare tactics. In the US now - more people than not without masks - no hysteria - no jumping up if someone coughs and resignation - it’s like a cold or many would rather take their chances!

Is everyone going to be this uptight about staying in with Flu or a viral sore throat. Do must people in jobs who have a viral throat infection stay away from work! No!

Many young unvaccinated fit and healthy people would even hope to catch Covid if a reinfection - a travel pass for 90 days without paying for expensive PCR tests which a triple vaccinated person needs to pay for!

Whole thing is madness!

PS - even with football matches nobody even checking properly the Covid passes unless a head shake and X-ray vision is there! Plain crazy!

[Dubbag]

Dubs can you clarify one point for me.

In the earlier post Baggieal says that the booster gives you no more protection against catching Covid than someone not vaccinated.

Surely this cannot be right?

I am sure I read in the BMJ in December that studies from Israel showed conclusively that people vaccinated we’re catching Covid at a lot lower rate than those not vaccinated. In addition those who were vaccinated were getting fewer problems from the virus.

I think the study was significant in numbers but from memory it did perhaps relate to the over 60s?

If you take two people..same age, same ***, same high level of fitness etcetra....only one vaccinated, the other not....then most evidence points to the unvaccinated person will have a greater chance of visiting a hospital or even been admitted....
Clearly the younger you are the better you are at surviving (as in most cases) Your immune response will be more efficient....

A few people we have in at the moment are off the ventilator after only a few days and then discharged back to the wards..even though they have had both shots and in some cases (not many cause our third shot booster only really got going recently)
Unvaccinated are on the vent longer and recovery is going to be slow.....but mostly these case loads are of the Delta variety...

Omicron data is still been gathered but evidence thus far seems to indicate less chance of a needed visit to the ICU...
But I stress...still early. Also so many variables play into this.
The numbers can be a bit screwed....example...patient A comes in with severe breathing issues,,,swabbed and is covid positive....after a few weeks we move him to the main ward because his lab results are clear....he stays for another three weeks and then dies.
He is not counted as a death from covid.

[Dubbag]

The issue around the third booster is that it gives cover for a short period of time...perhaps 60 days then it wains......
But jabbing vaccines into peoples arms is not going to be the answer either............

[baggieal]

The issue around the third booster is that it gives cover for a short period of time...perhaps 60 days then it wains......
But jabbing vaccines into peoples arms is not going to be the answer either............

Hi Dubs

Glad to see you are back. The point in question is - a person who is triple vaccinated can pass on the virus as much as someone who is not jabbed - correct? That’s what I was told by my consultant! Obviously if someone is 50 plus and triple vaccinated they stand far less chance of a serious illness as opposed to someone the same age non vaccinated as you have said.

Presume having Covid it’s cast iron you can’t get it again for 90 days as even a non vaccinated person can travel overseas with a positive diagnosis where a triple vaccinated person has to pay for a PCR - correct?

[Dubbag]

Hi Dubs
Glad to see you are back. The point in question is - a person who is triple vaccinated can pass on the virus as much as someone who is not jabbed - correct?

Hi baggiel....Correct..
All evidence points to the viral load been the same in vaccinated and unvaccinated.. as to how long the peak load lasts is still not clear.
It is the main reason why herd immunity is possibly out of reach...