O/T:- Ukraine [Incorporating 'Congrats to Russia' thread]

[jackal2]

Interesting article here about the situation facing Sweden and Finland as non-NATO members:

https://inews.co.uk/news/world/will-...-putin-1496734

[irishpete]

On the News bar on BBC Russian troops heading towards Finland!! If he did decide to go on. Feck all NATO can do again.

[irishpete]

I see China isn't showing PL games due to support for Ukraine. Time to feck the Russians, Chinese & Indians off. We are too reliable on them. Re invest in our own industries. Yes it will take time but at least we could re produce goods again etc. Pay fair wages, people will do it.

[drillerpie]

Good post TSANHO, I'll have a go at answering them as I see it.

How was Britain and the US invading and destroying Iraq and Afghanistan (on a lie) killing hundreds if not thousands of innocent civilians really any different to this invasion of Ukraine. Where were our sanctions or convictions for war crimes?

They were both invasions, but I think they were differences between the two, and between both and Ukraine.

Afghanistan was the most justifiable of all three IMO. It was being used as a base and training camp for Al Qaeda, and it was being ruled by the Taleban in a brutal fashion. Certainly in the cities, Afghanistan benefited from the invasion and rebuilding of the country. I think the quality of life for most ordinary people in the 20 years we were there was without doubt better than the previous 20, and very probably will end up being better than the next 20.

Iraq was also being ruled in a brutal fashion but was a fully functioning country. If you were a Sunni muslim prepared to put aside your political beliefs, go out and vote for Saddam, pay bribes to corrupt officials, keep your head down and your nose clean, life was OK. Less so for the Shia population, and much less so for the Kurds.

Our invasion was based on flimsy intelligence (just one CIA source) which was ***ed up to look rock solid for political convenience and turned out to be false.

Out troops were generally welcomed in the beginning by people glad to see the back of Saddam, but then our catastrophic management of the post invasion period led to Iraq becoming the quagmire we ended up in. Instead of giving power to someone who had the respect of the people and local knowledge we tried to run the country like a province of the USA, even cutting our allies the Kurds out of the decision making process. We sacked the whole Iraqi military, meaning from one day to the next there were roughly half a million trained, weapons bearing men with no jobs, money or future. We failed to ensure basics like food, water and 24hr electricity were provided, meaning the Iran backed militias in the south and the Sunni militias elsewhere were able to gain popular support.

So basically a **** show. And our fault. But still not as bad as what is happening in Ukraine IMO, where there was no brutal dictator, no genocide of minorities (unless you believe the Russian propaganda of Ukranian Nazis crucifying Russian speaking children in town squares, which I don't). There were just people who didn't want to live under Russian control, and who wanted to be like their Western neighbours so they could have, for all the numerous faults of our Western system, a kind of governance that generally leads to more freedom and prosperity.

I don’t understand the disparity in condemnation and uproar between the two cases. I don’t condone Putins actions at all but I feel quite angry for some reason that it’s one rule for the West and one for Russia (and anyone else who doesn’t agree with US foreign policy).

That's a fair point. On the other hand, people who don't like the West, USA, UK, NATO etc also turn a blind eye to a lot of unsavoury and inconvenient details when choosing their anti-imperial heroes. Human nature I suppose.

Why is it alright to illegally blow up the Middle East on the US’s request but not to go and rightfully defend a sovereign nation? But it’s alright, we’re imposing sanctions and sending weapons….which will be intercepted and used by the Russians anyway. I feel angry that we’re lapping all of this news up - ‘Ukraine Invasion Special’ - when really we’ve served up equally terrible atrocities ourselves. I read further outrage that Russia may use Thermobaric weapons and they must be sanctioned if they do….the very same weapons that the US used in the past.

I think the US used thermobaric weapons in Vietnam (horrible thing to do) and more recently when looking for Al Qaeda fighters in caves in Afghanistan. Russia is using them in cities in a delevoped country in 2022. Sometimes it's not a nice clean easy choice between good and bad, it's a choice between bad and worse. And the difference betweenbad and worse can be significant

Another example: we hit a car in Kabul with a drone strike that was supposed to be carrying an IS terrorist but was actually found later to be carrying innocent civilians. The US military admitted and apologised for its mistake, which was obviously of no benefit at all to the poor guys who died and their families.

Russia would deny it ever happened, or say someone else did it, or they did it to themselves. And as we can see from what is happening there now, it probably also wouldn't end well for the journalists pursuing the case.

This is a really important point that I can't stress enough.

If we’re going to step up for a just cause then let’s do it, now, people like Putin only understand one thing. When is it right to not defend a country just because it isn’t part of NATO….what about just doing what is right, no matter how hard that would be?

Is there so little to gain from it?

Don’t Russia have weapons of mass destruction too?

I agree with the sentiment, and yes Putin does understand only one thing - what he can get away with. Unfortunately, his calculations are usually right about how far we are willing to go.

If you'll pardon a poker analogy for what is a very serious real life situation, he is like a good poker player - he doesn't necessarily have the best hand (NATO's combined military forces are much better than his) but still wins the game as he increases the cost of staying in the game to a level we aren't willing to tolerate.

[keldsyke]

Reports that the Russians are still bombarding cities and corridors along the humanitarian corridors while the ceasefire is still in place, is it a ploy to antagonise NATO and the US further?

[upthemaggies]

I see China isn't showing PL games due to support for Ukraine. Time to feck the Russians, Chinese & Indians off. We are too reliable on them. Re invest in our own industries. Yes it will take time but at least we could re produce goods again etc. Pay fair wages, people will do it.

I've been checking the Chinese state news media to see what they have to say on Ukraine and also any mention of Taiwan. Today they've got....

Taiwan island feels ‘deep disrespect’ as US delegation leader wears socks of ‘improper’ colorway
Taiwan media have stopped cheering the latest US bipartisan delegation dispatched to the island after noticing a "lack of respect" and "inappropriate" attire from a former US senior official. Taiwan's secessionists Democratic Progressive Party (DPP) authority, which always toes Washington's line, has yet to make comments on the issue.

Meanwhile RT has....
China makes Taiwan warning
Beijing seeks peaceful reunification of the island, but rejects separatism and foreign meddling
Chinese Premier Li Keqiang has warned against separatist inclinations and foreign meddling in Taiwan, which Beijing considers to be under its sovereignty. China wants to develop peaceful ties and ultimately reunify with the island, the official told an annual parliamentary session on Saturday.
“All of us, Chinese on both sides of the Taiwan Strait, should come together to advance the great and glorious cause of China’s rejuvenation,” the premier said.

[BigFatPie]

Reports that the Russians are still bombarding cities and corridors along the humanitarian corridors while the ceasefire is still in place, is it a ploy to antagonise NATO and the US further?

Apparently that’s what the Russians have always done.

[upthemaggies]

Days after Biden's speech in which he stood in solidarity with the Iranian people, accompanied by Nancy Palosi's bizarre knuckle rubbing routine, Biden has now done a TV interview in which he wonders how we got to the point "Putin is just going to decide to invade Russia".

[Old_pie]

Days after Biden's speech in which he stood in solidarity with the Iranian people, accompanied by Nancy Palosi's bizarre knuckle rubbing routine, Biden has now done a TV interview in which he wonders how we got to the point "Putin is just going to decide to invade Russia".

Perhaps they could all meet up in Croatia over a cup of tea with that labour woman, that'll sort it all out.

[keldsyke]

Interesting development with the talk of the Polish giving Ukraine their SU-29s (I think) to enforce a no fly zone in exchange for the USA to replace them with F16s. I can see Poland getting dragged into this if that happens.