What is it with Americans and guns!

[Robus]

I'm a bit bored now by this conversation,

I live in London, feel safe and happy to have friends from a multitude of places around the globe. I don't think we are suffering because of it, I actually think the opposite. The vast majority of people who come here work their backsides off and contribute to society.

I will no longer watch or listen to Farage because I know for what he is, a lying charlatan who is given too much airtime. Although most posters on here think he's the messiah, I think he has severely damaged our country.

I just can't get my head around your logic, this is a thread about a school shooting in the USA, and the access your citizens have to guns. And you think it is somehow linked to immigration. Its just truly bizarre. I guess you have your view and I have mine. My only advice to you would be to open your mind a little and try to understand other cultures. Genuinely, you will feel enriched for it.

One more thing - Farage talking about the elite. Nothing hypocritical at all about that!

Have a nice day

I understand. It's a rabbit hole of a topic.

You've a longer memory of Farage than me, but in the decade approximately since I became aware of him his message has been consistent. As an outsider he seems to me to have been one of the most effective upstart politicians you've had in a long time--since Wilberforce? First UKIP, and then the Brexit Party. His effectiveness was in pointing out that your leader really don't care what the English or British think about borders, immigration, or sovereignty. Don't care. He shamed the Tories into delivering what they promised, else #Brexit would have been stolen from you. For that, he deserves to have a statue erected, which gangs of university communists admitted by racial preferences will pull down some day, chanting against white supremacy.

[baggiematt]

Translation: "Americans really have no right to live within secure borders. PS. Neither do we English."

We will see about that. We deciding right now whether our children and grandchildren will have a place to call home on this planet. I hope we will not surrender.

You have had 27 immigrant children (or immigrant descendants) killed by another immigrant (or immigrant descendant) with automatic weapons and your answer is....stop immigrants.

And yet the current crop of immigrants that inhabited America, who absolutely love weapons are so cowardly that they can't even protect their children from themselves.

You genuinely need immigrants to improve the gene pool as your current population don't have the guts to protect your own.

Home of the brave...load of tosh!

[mickd1961]

A sweeping statement I will admit but I’ve met a fair few Americans and almost to a man ( and woman ) I’ve found them to be the most vacuous, ill informed morons I’ve ever had to deal with.

Add to that a ridiculously over inflated opinion of themselves and their country and the reliance on “god” make them more to be ridiculed than virtually any other race on earth.

No offence personally Robus and Ya’ll have yourselves a real fine day until you get shot by some inbred.

[Leicesterbaggie]

This thread has absolutely nothing to do with immigration but the non sensical obsession that the Americans have regarding their right to possess fire arms. As long as they remain taking this stance, hundreds of their children are sadly going to die. Yes, it could happen in this country, as it did in Dunblane, but you can bet your last penny that it will happen time and time again in the USA.

[Robus]

No wish to add fuel to a fire but I think his point has sailed over your head like a stray bullet.

Unless you're a native American, you yourself and your direct lineage are...... immigrants. Not judging you in this respect.

By the way, genuinely interested to know your weapon(s) of choice while touring the land of the brave and the home of the free on your motorbike.

In my minds eye you must look like an extra from a Mad Max movie with a belt fed machine gun mounted on a sidecar for whomever rides pillion �� .

No, his point landed on target. I translated the irony into plain language: He is saying that Europeans once displaced pre-existing populations in the Americas. Therefore what right have we to a homeland here? The flavor of the irony comes from two ideas left hanging in the air. This first is anthropological: Peoples come and go from history. You will be replaced in your turn. Haha! The second point is moralistic: The crimes of your ancestors will be repeated upon you...karma baby!

The first is true. The second is incoherent. To the whole argument, I'd say it's mistaken on a premise. The premise is that our right to enjoy a homeland with secure borders depends upon what in American real estate we call "clear title." If our title is somehow tainted--lets say because our ancestors displaced Amerindians--then the land isn't really ours. However, our right to live within secure borders is a human right. We did not inherit it. It is not tainted. We do not lack "clear title."

That's as plain as I can make it.

I used to post on the Wolves forum years back, including pictorials of my motorcycle tours. Firearm laws vary from state to state, making it difficult to obey the law while staying safe when traveling across country. The constraints of a motorcycle add to the challenge. Hypothetically, I'd be happy with a J frame revolver and a can of pepper stray.

[Omegstrat6]

Hmm, have to say that I mostly agree with 123 here as this thread has turned from the (what I felt was a perfectly logical) premise that the more guns available in a society=the higher risk factor of people being shot by one to immigration=bad and, by implication, leads to gun crime. The data from the US clearly shows that those states with higher levels of gun ownership had the highest levels of fatalities from guns and these include Alaska, Wyoming and Montana-hardly, I believe, bastions of immigrant populations. Unless I'm wrong?

I am not getting into the subject of immigration too much here but will only say that, whilst levels are too high and we can only support so many, overall, I still believe most immigrants come over to either escape persecution or poverty and make a better life for themselves just as so many have over the centuries. Generally they enrich and add to our culture but IMHO whilst they should not disavow their own culture they should also assimilate into ours and learn the language etc. Certain elements of some cultures-extreme patriarchy for example-are also not acceptable here. There are, of course, always exceptions, but these are relatively few and latched upon to support the no-immigration stance.

It is true that some immigrants fleeing war torn countries bring that violence with them. I have seen this first hand with those who fled the Bosnian conflict in the 1990s and a West Indian friend remembers the brutality of some Somalians as he grew up in an area of London but these, thankfully, lessen over time and with assimilation. Immigrant populations-or more properly "ethnic" ones (as they have been established for some time) -do tend to have more violent crime in their communities. In the US about 10 times more Black Americans die in gun crime than white despite making up just 38% of the population but surely the key drivers in this culture of guns/violence/drugs/crime is poorer economics, education and opportunities? These are communities that are at the wrong end of the equalities scale and that applies whether they are in the US, UK or anywhere.

[Robus]

Hmm, have to say that I mostly agree with 123 here as this thread has turned from the (what I felt was a perfectly logical) premise that the more guns available in a society=the higher risk factor of people being shot by one to immigration=bad and, by implication, leads to gun crime. The data from the US clearly shows that those states with higher levels of gun ownership had the highest levels of fatalities from guns and these include Alaska, Wyoming and Montana-hardly, I believe, bastions of immigrant populations. Unless I'm wrong?

You are hearing figures that contain both homicides and suicides counted together as "gun deaths." More than half the total are suicides. In states where guns are widely available, like Wyoming or Montana, suicides tend to use guns rather other methods. The meaningful figure is gun homicides. Half of our homicides consist of members of urban street gangs shooting each other and passers-by. Somebody posted a news article about last weekend's shootings in Chicago. 50 shootings, 9 deaths. Fortunately it rained last weekend. Plenty of summer weather to come!

I am not getting into the subject of immigration too much here but will only say that, whilst levels are too high and we can only support so many, overall, I still believe most immigrants come over to either escape persecution or poverty and make a better life for themselves just as so many have over the centuries. Generally they enrich and add to our culture but IMHO whilst they should not disavow their own culture they should also assimilate into ours and learn the language etc. Certain elements of some cultures-extreme patriarchy for example-are also not acceptable here. There are, of course, always exceptions, but these are relatively few and latched upon to support the no-immigration stance.

It is true that some immigrants fleeing war torn countries bring that violence with them. I have seen this first hand with those who fled the Bosnian conflict in the 1990s and a West Indian friend remembers the brutality of some Somalians as he grew up in an area of London but these, thankfully, lessen over time and with assimilation. Immigrant populations-or more properly "ethnic" ones (as they have been established for some time) -do tend to have more violent crime in their communities.

Demography is destiny. Mo who runs a curry shop up the road is a decent bloke. Also, English people are leaving areas like London and Birmingham where "Mo" has become the most common birth name. You are being run out of your cities. Where do you suppose this is leading?

In the US about 10 times more Black Americans die in gun crime than white despite making up just 38% of the population but surely the key drivers in this culture of guns/violence/drugs/crime is poorer economics, education and opportunities? These are communities that are at the wrong end of the equalities scale and that applies whether they are in the US, UK or anywhere.

Blacks make up 13% of our population and commit more than half of all murders, armed robberies, carjackings, home invasions, etc. etc. There has been a civilizational regression in that community, with marriage disappearing as an institution, 3/4 of black children now raised in families without a father present, "baby mommas" and "baby daddies" taking over from husbands and wives, gang culture.

In the 1960s, the federal government began hiring poor urban women to stay home and raise babies they could not support. The catch: They only qualified if there was no man in the house. True story. It was called Welfare. Back then, only 1/4 of black kids were born to single mothers. Half a century of that policy has tripled the figure.

What has this go to do with black urban gun crime? Everything.

[Omegstrat6]

I'm aware that majority of gun related deaths in the US are suicides and that the level of deaths and injury from guns amongst children is also staggeringly high. I think I posted this earlier. In relation to states like Alaska, Wyoming and Montana then, with their high level of gun ownership, I accept that these probably account for the majority of deaths due to fire arm incidents rather than gun "crime" as such. However, surely there is still a correlation between the number of deaths by gun and the number of guns available? The point is, if there were less guns and less access to them, would this figure go down? I believe it would. Certainly the number of child fatalities/injury would decline but I guess the moot point is about the suicide rate. Trump argues this is about mental health not guns and he has a point to a degree but if you took such an easily accessible means away this must surely help? Certainly don't deny that mental health issues-and their causes- need to be dealt with but it's got to be easier and quicker to pull a trigger than to contemplate and go through with hanging/poisoning/jumping?

The argument against access to AR15 type weapons however seems a far easier case to make and regardless of mental health issues it should be clear that you can cause far greater damage with assault type weapons than others. The clue might be in the word "assault". Why would anyone purchase such a weapon other than to use it for its capabilities?

The points made by Robus ref the failings in too many black urban communities in the US may all be true and I don't doubt their contribution to the gun crime culture in those areas but I don't see how that invalidates my belief that much of this is also driven by social inequalities.

[Omegstrat6]

As regards Robus's Mo, there are certainly areas in this country where traditionally "white" areas have changed significantly with increasing numbers of immigrant populations moving in and settling and this has caused resentments. But this has always been the case whether in the UK or elsewhere and often these newer arrivals settle in poorer areas (which increases tensions around things like housing availability and job opportunities) because that is where they can afford to live. They band together because of this and because they are of the same culture and maybe because they won't be accepted in other areas and it's "safety in numbers". Doesn't matter whether you talk about the Irish/ Jewish/ West Indian/Pakistani/ Italian/ Chinese "quarters" or communities in towns and cities or the ex-pat enclaves of Brits in Spain, like will tend to stick with like.

The idealistic solution, I guess, would be for both sides to be more welcoming and tolerant and to work at removing prejudices through better communication and understanding of each other. Existing communities should not feel they are being pushed out and newcomers should not be made to feel unwelcome purely based on their skin colour or nationality.

Other cultures can-and have-enriched our own and whilst, as I said earlier, some elements of other cultures might be rightly not acceptable (because they infringe on certain other freedoms/rights already established here) a lot of the problem lies with ignorance and an unwillingness to engage -on both sides. Social inequalities only add fuel to the fire.

[Leicesterbaggie]

I realise that in a previous post I stated that this is a topic on guns and not immigration. However, living in Leicestershire I would like to point out that over 50% of the city of Leicester population is Asian. Surely this is not right in a British city. I don't have a problem with Asians but do have a problem with how the city has changed because of this. It would be far better if, when people arrive in this country, they are more spread out and not concentrated just in places like Leicester or Bradford.