Let Them All In - Poor Poor Devils

[baggiematt]

Quite simply, because its a great barometer as to how many of the poorest in our country are on the breadline and need assistance to feed themselves. Many of them already working full time.

Just look at the stark difference in numbers from 2010 to now. We are much more unequal society now than we were then.

I do feel like you don’t consider external forces in your evaluation of the tories. Like they are fully responsible for food and petrol price increases or the national debt caused by the market crashes in response to but not caused by the Tories BTW.

This government is shocking in some areas but overall the tories have had to clean up a lot of mess from external forces that Labour never had to deal with. Its stupid to think we’d have all been dancing in the street if Labour remained in power post 2008.

Food banks are welfare in response to the current economic crisis.

[WBA123]

I do feel like you don’t consider external forces in your evaluation of the tories. Like they are fully responsible for food and petrol price increases or the national debt caused by the market crashes in response to but not caused by the Tories BTW.

This government is shocking in some areas but overall the tories have had to clean up a lot of mess from external forces that Labour never had to deal with. Its stupid to think we’d have all been dancing in the street if Labour remained in power post 2008.

Food banks are welfare in response to the current economic crisis.

I just can't agree with you here. Take a look at the food bank increase in 2015, before Brexit and way before the pandemic. One of the Government's roles is to provide a positive stimulus to the economy. I'm not saying the Tories are fully at fault, but there's no doubt they have contributed towards this cost of living crisis we find ourselves in by driving us towards a ridiculous Brexit for their own ends, not investing in business or business growth, and spaffing money up the wall.

So whilst yes we would have had increased inflation because of market conditions had another Government in place, the Tories have contributed to further worsening our economic position with their terrible economic policies.

Its okay though because there's no one else, apparently.

[baggiematt]

I just can't agree with you here. Take a look at the food bank increase in 2015, before Brexit and way before the pandemic. One of the Government's roles is to provide a positive stimulus to the economy. I'm not saying the Tories are fully at fault, but there's no doubt they have contributed towards this cost of living crisis we find ourselves in by driving us towards a ridiculous Brexit for their own ends, not investing in business or business growth, and spaffing money up the wall.

So whilst yes we would have had increased inflation because of market conditions had another Government in place, the Tories have contributed to further worsening our economic position with their terrible economic policies.

Its okay though because there's no one else, apparently.

Surely furlough was the largest investment in business in UK history? Bailing out banks? The 2009 fiscal boost, along with austerity. They have invested heavily in business. The fact that we now have 1.3m vacancies demonstrates investment in business.

Brexit will have hindered progress but the people wanted Brexit...and what is a government if it doesn't serve it's people? You didn't want it but the majority of the country did.

No doubt people voted for it because of immigration. But immigration hasn't been managed well for years with different cultures poorly integrated leading to people wanting a Canadian or Australian style immigration system, which they are unable to attain with European freedom of movement; which our country has had no say on being part of the EU. If that's what the majority of the country want, why can't the country have it?

Would it have happened under Labour? Maybe, or maybe not...It really depends on if they took the bait on offering a referendum to settle the matter, but if not we might have had Farage as PM given how staunch people wanted a better immigration system and out of Europe. There are more things in life than temporary hindrance in economic growth. The Swiss have the most economic freedom in Europe, something to bear in mind.

[WBA123]

Surely furlough was the largest investment in business in UK history? Bailing out banks? The 2009 fiscal boost, along with austerity. They have invested heavily in business. The fact that we now have 1.3m vacancies demonstrates investment in business.

Brexit will have hindered progress but the people wanted Brexit...and what is a government if it doesn't serve it's people? You didn't want it but the majority of the country did.

No doubt people voted for it because of immigration. But immigration hasn't been managed well for years with different cultures poorly integrated leading to people wanting a Canadian or Australian style immigration system, which they are unable to attain with European freedom of movement; which our country has had no say on being part of the EU. If that's what the majority of the country want, why can't the country have it?

Would it have happened under Labour? Maybe, or maybe not...It really depends on if they took the bait on offering a referendum to settle the matter, but if not we might have had Farage as PM given how staunch people wanted a better immigration system and out of Europe. There are more things in life than temporary hindrance in economic growth. The Swiss have the most economic freedom in Europe, something to bear in mind.

Eh?

In 2009, Labour were in power. Labour led the financial crisis recovery mostly when the banks went under. How does the fact we have 1.3m vacancies demonstrate investment in business? That is a really bizarre statement. We have lost a lot of European workers thanks to Brexit which has contributed to the vacancies and fruit rotting in fields and not enough workers in the care and logistics sectors.

People wanted Brexit you say...but did a majority of people want this Brexit? Most people who voted Leave didn't have a clue what they were voting for. Some wanted to stay in the Single Market, some didn't want a deal. We got Boris Johnsons 'Oven Ready' deal which is not quite as oven ready as he made out, as the Northern Ireland protocol is a mess with no obvious signs of a solution.

This is not a temporary hindrance in economic growth. This is self harm to our economy we are committing, over a long period of time. Many businesses will not recover, many have already gone under or moved HQs to Europe. But at least we've kept some Europeans out from picking fruit in our fields or handling our luggage in our airports. That's the real win.

So yes this Government is indefensibly terrible, Brexit is God awful. But the majority of this dim electorate obviously want it, so here we are.

[baggiematt]

Eh?

In 2009, Labour were in power. Labour led the financial crisis recovery mostly when the banks went under. How does the fact we have 1.3m vacancies demonstrate investment in business? That is a really bizarre statement. We have lost a lot of European workers thanks to Brexit which has contributed to the vacancies and fruit rotting in fields and not enough workers in the care and logistics sectors.

People wanted Brexit you say...but did a majority of people want this Brexit? Most people who voted Leave didn't have a clue what they were voting for. Some wanted to stay in the Single Market, some didn't want a deal. We got Boris Johnsons 'Oven Ready' deal which is not quite as oven ready as he made out, as the Northern Ireland protocol is a mess with no obvious signs of a solution.

This is not a temporary hindrance in economic growth. This is self harm to our economy we are committing, over a long period of time. Many businesses will not recover, many have already gone under or moved HQs to Europe. But at least we've kept some Europeans out from picking fruit in our fields or handling our luggage in our airports. That's the real win.

So yes this Government is indefensibly terrible, Brexit is God awful. But the majority of this dim electorate obviously want it, so here we are.

I had my dates mixed up. A bit of Mandela Affect creeping in.

But the point remains, Labour were in power during better period than tories, no doubt. Even Thatcher came in during relative economic decline. They have had tough decisions to make due to economic uncertainty and incredible levels of necessary debt. They get met with absolute drivel of criticism about cuts to police and limited NHS spend from yourself and others.

How many workers do you think we have lost compared to the current level of immigration? I absolutely guarantee it’s not £1.3m because we still have immigration each year. Would we have that many vacancies vs a relatively low un employment rate if the grants and reduction in business rates weren’t used during the pandemic? Or Furlough?

[WBA123]

I had my dates mixed up. A bit of Mandela Affect creeping in.

But the point remains, Labour were in power during better period than tories, no doubt. Even Thatcher came in during relative economic decline. They have had tough decisions to make due to economic uncertainty and incredible levels of necessary debt. They get met with absolute drivel of criticism about cuts to police and limited NHS spend from yourself and others.

How many workers do you think we have lost compared to the current level of immigration? I absolutely guarantee it’s not £1.3m because we still have immigration each year. Would we have that many vacancies vs a relatively low un employment rate if the grants and reduction in business rates weren’t used during the pandemic? Or Furlough?

Labour gave us low inflation and ten consecutive years of economic growth from 97-07. There was a recession in the EU and the US in the early 2000s which we avoided.

I don't know why you keep bringing up furlough, virtually every developed country in the world offered some king of wage subsidy. Our Govt didn't do anything special or different to any other country. Other than handle the pandemic terribly.

I just don't understand your perspective that you think the Tories are doing job because of the high number of job vacancies. We always have had some amount of job vacancies in this country, without looking at the figures it was probably something like 500k-750k pre Tory Govt, and pre Brexit. That is a figure the country can cope with. Again, I'm just guessing, we've probably lost 250k-500k EU workers since the Brexit vote. That creates a level of job market where there isn't enough people to pick our fruit, serve us food, handle our baggage. And in turn that increases wages, and increases inflation. This is just simple economics. And you're praising the Government for this economic inadequacy.

As for the NHS and police, police numbers have decreased since 2010. NHS spend has gone down in real terms in the same period. You might call it drivel, but these are facts. The NHS figures between 2010 and now are like chalk and cheese. And in my view, a lot of the issues from Brexit and the Govts failings have been swept up under the rug by the pandemic. When in reality it is our Govts financial mismanagement and incompetence that is causing it.

[baggiematt]

Labour gave us low inflation and ten consecutive years of economic growth from 97-07. There was a recession in the EU and the US in the early 2000s which we avoided.

I don't know why you keep bringing up furlough, virtually every developed country in the world offered some king of wage subsidy. Our Govt didn't do anything special or different to any other country. Other than handle the pandemic terribly.

I just don't understand your perspective that you think the Tories are doing job because of the high number of job vacancies. We always have had some amount of job vacancies in this country, without looking at the figures it was probably something like 500k-750k pre Tory Govt, and pre Brexit. That is a figure the country can cope with. Again, I'm just guessing, we've probably lost 250k-500k EU workers since the Brexit vote. That creates a level of job market where there isn't enough people to pick our fruit, serve us food, handle our baggage. And in turn that increases wages, and increases inflation. This is just simple economics. And you're praising the Government for this economic inadequacy.

As for the NHS and police, police numbers have decreased since 2010. NHS spend has gone down in real terms in the same period. You might call it drivel, but these are facts. The NHS figures between 2010 and now are like chalk and cheese. And in my view, a lot of the issues from Brexit and the Govts failings have been swept up under the rug by the pandemic. When in reality it is our Govts financial mismanagement and incompetence that is causing it.

I always find your criticisms of tories excessively harsh, inaccurate and without context. Which is why I have pointed out the drivel…it’s not that it’s factually incorrect, it’s that it lacks thought context and reason. The thought that labour would not make public sector cuts in that climate it unusual and shows your bias.

I’m not actually defending this Tory govt, which has been fairly shocking on several fronts but you have posted recently wanting them out for generations, which is an odd stance. For every Tory pandemic blunder, you could take a balanced view and think about the illegal war we entered under Labour. The lives that were lost unnecessarily and the costs should also put you off voting for them for a lifetime by your logic.

From a Brexit point of view, immigration of low paid workers is always a shot in the arm to an economy but it’s a false figure as it always catches up with itself and provides no increase in GDP per capita. We should be balancing what we have in society vs what we need and not constantly racing to gain investment through businesses interested in low skilled worker availability, which we take from other countries. That takes time to settle and will no doubt temporarily impact economically but is recoverable. We should be giving the people what they want not just chasing one off best possible economic performance! That’s not how a society should function.

We might have to leave it there, but that’s my view you’re entitled to yours.