O/T:- Ukraine [Incorporating 'Congrats to Russia' thread]

[drillerpie]

I think it's perfectly possible to condemn Putin's attack on the Ukraine but at the same time acknowledge that the West did play a major part in provoking it. Disproportionate aggression ultimately comes from a place of fear, and in Russia's case it was the (broadly justified) impression that they were becoming ever more surrounded by NATO. Many elements of the Western media try to portray the battle as a very simple 'good guys' versus 'bad guys' scenario, but it certainly isn't that simple.

I think Russia, far from being provoked, has been treated with kid gloves for a long time. The idea being that if you let them get away with everything, keep buying more and more natural resources from them, eventually they will come round.

Disproportionate aggression can also come from widely shared idea of the manifest destiny of the 'Russian World', and a perceived weakness of the people you're being aggressive against.

I personally don't buy the NATO excuse, or the denazificiation / desatanisation excuse, or protecting Russian speakers excuse.

I think you just have to listen to what they say and watch what they do to understand their motivations.

[Old_pie]

I think Russia, far from being provoked, has been treated with kid gloves for a long time. The idea being that if you let them get away with everything, keep buying more and more natural resources from them, eventually they will come round.

Disproportionate aggression can also come from widely shared idea of the manifest destiny of the 'Russian World', and a perceived weakness of the people you're being aggressive against.

I personally don't buy the NATO excuse, or the denazificiation / desatanisation excuse, or protecting Russian speakers excuse.

I think you just have to listen to what they say and watch what they do to understand their motivations.

The Russian leaders want the Soviet Union back. Imagine that we set about attacking our old Empire to restore our power around the world. I agree the NATO excuse - but Putin and his cronies hate Gorbachev for breaking down the barriers. NATO forces don't need to be on his doorstep to obliterate them plus of course two 'neutral' countries are now clamouring to join ("Dear Mr Putin, countries apply to join, they don't get invaded")

Putin, the thug, has been laughing and sneering at the West as he built up his riches and funds for this war on our money. I wonder what warnings our leaders were given by the analysts over the past 20+ years that were ignored for cheap fuel.

Minimal response to the shooting down of MAS17 must have emboldened Putin, but he is getting increasingly desperate now that his "special operations" invasion of Ukraine wasn't over in one week.

Meanwhile the Ukrainian population suffers but the seem to be displaying the bulldog spirit that got us through WWII.