O/T:- Ukraine [Incorporating 'Congrats to Russia' thread]

[Robertomac]

Do you not think Putin's conduct and ideology is very closely aligned with Hitler?

[andy6025]

Do you not think Putin's conduct and ideology is very closely aligned with Hitler?

In relation to “conduct” am I right to assume you’re referring to the theory that just as Hitler had ambitions to militarily conquer all of Europe and exterminate millions of people including the slaughter em mass of all Jews, Slavs, Gypsies, communists, homo***uals, the disabled, and others, then so too does Putin?

If so, I don’t see any convincing evidence to support this theory. Not only has Putin not given any indication that he intends to invade other European countries (nor is there any evidence that he will) but both his many public declarations as well as his seeming military strategy and force deployments in Ukraine are evidence that he has never intended to conquer and occupy all of Ukraine. Nor do I see any evidence of a purported ‘genocide’ against any groups, despite the many declarations by western politicians and our media that he’s doing so. Even if we take Ursula Von der Layen’s recent numbers at face value that around 20,000 Ukrainian civilians and more than 100,000 Ukrainian soldiers have been killed in Ukraine (with American estimate of Russians killed about the same) and even if we wrongly assume that every one of those civilians were killed by the Russians, then the civilian to soldier deaths ratio simply doesn’t support such a theory. In WWI civilians made up around 45-60% of casualties. In WWII the ratio was around 2 civilians for every soldier killed. The Korean War and Vietnam wars also had a 2:1 ratio.

Yet by western numbers (200,000 soldiers killed and 20,000 civilians), this war has a 1:10 ratio.

Not only does this fly in the face of claims that Putin is committing genocide, but would actually be evidence to support an argument that Russian troops in general have been extremely careful in avoiding Ukrainian civilian casualties. There’s all kinds of other evidence to support this counter-theory as well, but I’ll leave that for further discussion if you’re genuinely interested in the topic.

As for comparing Hitler and Putin’s ideologies... I don’t know what you mean here. I’ve yet to hear anyone who knows a modicum about political ideologies compare the two in any serious manner. Is there something specific you have in mind where you think their ideologies are comparable? I’d say that we can see a lot of ideological similarities between many Ukrainians and Hitler, such as the Banderites. Denazification of Ukraine is one of Russia’s declared goals, after all. But between Putin and Hitler they are ideologically quite radically different.

[Jampie]

both his many public declarations as well as his seeming military strategy and force deployments in Ukraine are evidence that he has never intended to conquer and occupy all of Ukraine.

This is just straight up false. What was the entire northern campaign for? Why did they attack Mykolaiva? Why occupy snake island or bomb Lviv?

And his public declarations? Yikes. You would have trouble finding ten of these relating to his illegal war of aggression that haven't turned out to be blatant lies. You can't seriously expect me to believe you're gullible enough to believe the man's words.

[andy6025]

Criminals. Put your reading glasses on maybe.

Nope, I don’t support war criminals or war crimes.

This is just straight up false. What was the entire northern campaign for? Why did they attack Mykolaiva? Why occupy snake island or bomb Lviv?

And his public declarations? Yikes. You would have trouble finding ten of these relating to his illegal war of aggression that haven't turned out to be blatant lies. You can't seriously expect me to believe you're gullible enough to believe the man's words.

Since neither of us have had access to the Russian plans the best we can do is listen to various analysts and use logic to determine what theories are most likely to be true.

That which I think most likely to be true is that Russia’s northern campaign served two purposes: first, present a big enough threat to Kiev in order to pin down Ukrainian reserves and prevent them from reinforcing the nationalist battalions in Donbas and southern Ukraine. Second, force Zalensky to the negotiating table. Both of these seemed to work. Turkey, who brokered the negotiations, confirmed that the two parties were close to a deal if not about to put pend to paper, and that they satisfied most of Russia’s key objectives.

I think they attack Mykolaiv because it’s en route to Odessa. The Russian people regard Odessa as Russian and will extremely disappointed in Putin if he doesn’t acquire it, especially after all of those people were burned alive by Nazi Ukrainians in that massacre in 2014.

[i961pie]

The only theory to be true is Putin's Russia has invaded a sovereign state and is doing mass murder,
end of story. The rest of the world can see it and only the Kremlin propaganda merchants believe otherwise.

[Jampie]

Nope, I don’t support war criminals or war crimes.

Yes you do. This is a war of aggression (a war crime) and you have made extraordinary efforts to support it. You are also supporting Putin, who is a war criminal on several counts.

Other war crimes you support are:

• Indiscriminate bombing that impacts civilians
• Reckless disregard for civilian casualties
• Forced relocations of civilians unrelated to safety (some of these count as genocide)

Since neither of us have had access to the Russian plans the best we can do is listen to various analysts and use logic to determine what theories are most likely to be true.

That which I think most likely to be true is that Russia’s northern campaign served two purposes: first, present a big enough threat to Kiev in order to pin down Ukrainian reserves and prevent them from reinforcing the nationalist battalions in Donbas and southern Ukraine. Second, force Zalensky to the negotiating table. Both of these seemed to work. Turkey, who brokered the negotiations, confirmed that the two parties were close to a deal if not about to put pend to paper, and that they satisfied most of Russia’s key objectives.

I think they attack Mykolaiv because it’s en route to Odessa. The Russian people regard Odessa as Russian and will extremely disappointed in Putin if he doesn’t acquire it, especially after all of those people were burned alive by Nazi Ukrainians in that massacre in 2014.

Occam's Razor and pretty well every other structured logic one could apply would suggest that whatever the goal of the northern effort was, it failed, because 100% of the positions in the north were abandoned. Any other theory is just ridiculous.

And whatever you choose to believe about negotiations (personally I don't think there have been any good faith negotiations yet), they have obviously failed too because nine months on, the war is still going.

It's Kyiv, by the way. Please at least spell it correctly.

[upthemaggies]

The soundtrack to this thread....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HG1d-mUQkMA

[andy6025]

Yes you do. This is a war of aggression (a war crime) and you have made extraordinary efforts to support it. You are also supporting Putin, who is a war criminal on several counts.

Other war crimes you support are:

• Indiscriminate bombing that impacts civilians
• Reckless disregard for civilian casualties
• Forced relocations of civilians unrelated to safety (some of these count as genocide)

Occam's Razor and pretty well every other structured logic one could apply would suggest that whatever the goal of the northern effort was, it failed, because 100% of the positions in the north were abandoned. Any other theory is just ridiculous.

And whatever you choose to believe about negotiations (personally I don't think there have been any good faith negotiations yet), they have obviously failed too because nine months on, the war is still going.

It's Kyiv, by the way. Please at least spell it correctly.

“Kyiv, also spelled Kiev, is the capital and most populous city of Ukraine.”

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyiv

It’s fun listening to newscasters tripping over the new pronunciation, because if they say it the traditional way then they think the Russians will have won.

I think we’ll just have to agree to disagree on the rest.

[drillerpie]

From a report by UN observers on the ground in Odesa in 2014 (bold type is mine):

What happened on 2 May 2014 in Odesa?

After the end of the Maidan protests in Kyiv, Odesa anti-Maidan groups – critical of the newly established central Government – called for the federalization of Ukraine, while Maidan supporters opposed this.

Tensions in Odesa increased after 19 February 2014, when a group of ‘pro-unity’ protesters and local journalists were attacked by organized groups in front of the Odesa Regional State Administration. During March and April 2014, however, the two opposing groups held rallies in Odesa every week without significant violence.

On 2 May 2014, around 300 well-organised ‘pro-federalism’ supporters attacked a march of about 2,000 ‘pro-unity’ protesters, including local residents and a large number of football fans known for their strong ’pro-unity’ position, who had arrived from Kharkiv for the football game that was taking place later that day. Clashes between the two groups broke out in the city centre, lasting several hours. Both groups used firearms, resulting in six people being shot and killed (four on the ‘pro-federalism’ side, and two on ‘pro-unity’ side). We were present on the scene and witnessed how the ‘pro-federalism’ groups began throwing stones and Molotov cocktails at the participants of the unity march. The situation spiralled out of control as the police failed to respond effectively to violence from both sides, even though they had been warned in advance of the high possibility of violence.

The presence of ‘pro-unity’ groups was overpowering in numbers and forced the ‘pro-federalism’ groups to scatter: some sought refuge at the top of a shopping centre close to where the clashes were taking place, others ran to a camp they had set up at Kulykove Pole square. While a large group of ‘pro-unity’ supporters marched towards Kulykove Pole, openly demonstrating their aggressive attitude, the police failed to respond, neither restraining the aggressive crowd nor securing the square.

When they arrived, the ‘pro-unity’ individuals destroyed the camp and the ‘pro-federalism’ supporters barricaded themselves in the House of Trade Unions. Mission’s staff saw both sides throwing stones and Molotov cocktails and heard the sounds of gunshots coming from both sides, and then saw the House of Trade Unions on fire. Firefighters from the State Emergency Service (SES) responded with significant delay to numerous emergency calls made by eyewitnesses, including one of our colleagues. By the time they arrived, some forty-five minutes after the first call, forty-two people had lost their lives (34 men, 7 women and a boy). In the absence of the emergency services, we observed some ‘pro-unity’ supporters assisting their trapped opponents to leave the burning building. However, some of those saved from the building were then heavily beaten by the crowd.