O/T:- The NHS strike - for or against?

[Chicken Balti Pie]

Correct magpie_mania I don't know any supermarket workers that are on £33,000 a year. This dispute started as a cry for more pay to stop them using food banks, and as support for the strike is not so popular now, they are chirping about it now being all about staffing levels and not being able to look after patients in the way they would like.
A 19% pay increase for a nurse would mean them receiving an extra £120 pounds a week, (let that sink in) which is funded by the tax payer, who then ends up at the food bank
sinophile, yes lets all pay more tax so the NHS staff can have lots of money to spend. Big question is how do the poor b*ggers making all these extra goods the nurses are buying, get a pay rise, as the vast majority would not be in a union and chances are their bosses would pocket all the extra money made from the sale of these items.
Elite_Pie many workers take home far less pay and work in far worse conditions than NHS staff but do not have a union to hold the country to ransom. Compared to the jobs I had in my working career, I would be as happy as a pig in sh*t working for the NHS.

They are salaried but then they basically worked out the "hourly rate" they then worked out the "net hourly rate" (after tax and pensions and whatnot) and then compared it to a deputy store manager at Aldi's gross hourly rate. It's disingenuous to say the least. Another trick they use is to say Health Care Assistants are "nurses", HCAs whilst do probably deserve more (they're near minimum wage), they aren't included in the nurses' pay awards. It's quite frankly wrong.

As for the working environment, I know for a fact that a lot of trusts don't want them working 12 hour shifts but the nurses themselves demanded it so in theory they only work 3 shifts a week on average. The problem is, this causes issues with staffing and keeping the levels correct and meeting the working time directive as well. If the government turned and said, right, you get a pay rise, but you're moving to 8 hour shifts, I wonder if they'd accept...

[sidders]

Where to start on the many misapprehensions occurring on this fred. Let's start by looking at the Tories' philosophy. They are committed to shrinking the state and putting more money in people's (i.e. their own) pockets. Can't people see that this strike has given them the opportunity to claim that unions broke the NHS (not them) and move us to a US type system where they and their cronies make vast amounts of lolly through medical insurance and the pharma industry?
What is this nonsense about their being a finite sum from which to meet pay demands? Echoes of Teresa May's magic money tree. Of course the country can't afford 19% for nurses but that figure is an opening gambit for 'negotiations' - which Tories refuse to take part in. It's all about priorities in spending rather than finite sums. We were told there was no money before the absolute shambles on PPE which Grantham rightly points out was nepotism run riot.
Davy 500 - are you under the belief that schools teach what teachers decide on? The National Curriculum is determined by various government bodies these days so if it's rubbish it's their rubbish. If teaching was such a cosy option, what a fool you were not to follow it as a career yourself - such easy pickings!
Yes, Elite, I support the strikers, The NHS needs total reform and the main correction would be linking medical and social care. This bunch of charlatans have been promising reform which would include that for 12 years but failed abysmally.
As I said about teachers, if people thought nursing was such a cushy number, why are nurses leaving it in droves?
Finally for now - Sunak. His wealth means he will never be abandoned in an ambulance for hours on end. His background and religion, which is supportive of a caste system, hardly qualifies him to care a fig about the poor and needy in our society.

[BigFatPie]

Obviously the nurses and everyone else have the right to strike and should do after putting up with years of piss poor pay rises that have made them relatively poorer for the last 12 years.

What grates a bit is the Tory voters on here who’ve voted time and again to destroy the NHS and are now complaining it’s not fit for purpose or some other bullsh!t. IT’S WHAT YOU VOTED FOR YOU SILLY KUNTS! The NHS was one of the most highly rated health services in 2010 and guess what’s happened since.

[TheBlackHorse]

... trying to cut away from some of the well meaning self interest on this emotive topic ... my daughter was in the last intake of nurses (thank God) before the idiot who decided nurses need a degree. She has a good friend, employed by NHS, who is an accountant earning £96,000 pa. For decades, along with much of GB general management, there is criminal poor management of most things in the NHS. It's useless politicians who have little knowledge about what makes things work - never mind whether red or blue - which allows out of control senior and middle managers to 'empire build'. The unions, bless them, see this total ineptitude and can play havoc with the useless system. Time to separate front line workers - nurses, ambulance staff, social workers - from the support staff ... although you can bet your life that unions won't go for that. My daughter is now a prescribing nurse ... you can imagine what she thinks about the situation ... NO MORE MONEY FOR THE NHS; CUT THE ADMIN/MANAGEMENT. It's not unlike the miners contempt for surface workers ... history repeating itself in a different form.

[cher1]

Time to separate front line workers - nurses, ambulance staff, social workers - from the support staff ... although you can bet your life that unions won't go for that. My daughter is now a prescribing nurse ... you can imagine what she thinks about the situation ... NO MORE MONEY FOR THE NHS; CUT THE ADMIN/MANAGEMENT. It's not unlike the miners contempt for surface workers ... history repeating itself in a different form.

I strongly disagree with this. My only issue with the nurses' strike is that it seems to want to separate nurses pay demands from all other NHS staff. Almost all NHS staff are paid on the same pay scales (A4C). Porters, ward clerks, HCAs, housekeepers are all ***** for good patient care, and paid significantly less. I worked (front line clinical) during a porters' strike years ago and it made me realise how inter-reliant we all were regarding care for patients.

Just focusing the pay fight on nurses also excludes People like physios, OTs, ODPs, SALTs, dieticians etc at infinitum. All are just as ***** as nurses. The focus should be on fair pay across the board, not just one, or a few, groups.

In terms of the NHS overall, maybe we need to radically rethink it. I've had multiple experiences in a European system and it's streets ahead of the UK (and not just the NHS in Tory times). Better outcomes and better patient experience at every step. It would cost us more, are we prepared to pay it?

[OchPie]

Votes do have consequences.



From this (superb) article, needs a subscription sadly: https://www.ft.com/content/b2154c20-...7-95d114d31f2b

[cher1]

The starred out word was v i t a l

[Robertomac]

This has been a really interesting thread.

I have a few close friends who work within the NHS in varying roles and the general opinion is the same - it doesn't matter how much money you throw at the NHS, it won't solve the problem as most of it is lost through inefficiency and mismanagement.

I agree that the main issue for the strikes is one of staffing rather than pay; clearly a 19% pay increase is never going to happen. My wife is a nurse by training who recently returned to work in the NHS after a prolonged absence whilst our children were little. She lasted just 2 months before jacking it in. The reason was not because it was too busy or unsafe, it was the opposite. She was bored and felt unjustified in being there, on some occasions having just one patient to deal with during a 9hr shift. During her two months, there were several other staff members mentioned who she never met because they were long-term sick.

I agree with the point raised above about nurses requiring a degree. This is a classic case of the law of unintended consequences. Clearly the idea was to raise standards, but the unintended consequences are that it has made entry more expensive and difficult. Nursing is surely more of a vocational occupation and we would be better encouraging school leavers to join through apprenticeships etc. It won't solve the staffing issue overnight, but other than recruitment from abroad, few things will.

Another point discussed above was over the nation's health. We need to have a serious examination of how much money (and other resources) the NHS wastes on avoidable illness - diabetes as an axample. I work in Mansfield and am always concerned by how many morbidly overweight people there are either toddling around or driving mobility scooters. People of working age, not old people. Just yesterday I saw a family where there were 3 generations of morbidly obese out together - grandma (who was probably in her late 40s) in the mobility scooter, mum pushing the pushchair and toddler. It breaks my heart to see as the poor kid will probably be overweight for life and through no fault of his own. I am sure it is not unique to Mansfield either and guess this is a snapshot of most British towns of similar size. If the government devoted more money so that people can access healthy foods, sports and leisure, this would again not solve anything overnight, but it would, over time, reduce the burden on the NHS. I remember Iceland being held up as an example of this after they knocked England out of the Euros. They had suffered from years of alcohol related health and social problems so began investing into sports activities for the young. This had a hugely positive impact on the nation's health, culminating in a small country doing so well at an international football tournament.

Anyway, do I support the strikes? I'm on the fence as I see arguments from both sides and to be honest think it is fairly well balanced. The downside of course means it makes resolution more difficult.

[Rez1862]

Being an NHS nurse, I have been on the fence about replying to this thread but reading some of the hugely disappointing, and frankly ludicrous, comments on here I felt compelled to reply.

There are a few comments made that I want to clarify. First of all - and I have heard this from various people - is that we 'signed up for this'. We have had up to a 20% real terms pay cut in the last 10 years. There are 50,000 nursing vacancies across the NHS. Morale & people are shattered. The population is increasing and people are living longer, with more complex needs; the demands on the service are stretched to breaking point and this will only get worse.

When I trained, we were given a bursary (c. £500 a month) to help fund our training (apologies if this is common knowledge but nursing students work for 6 months a year on placements). This was taken away by the Tories and now nursing students have the privilege of paying 9k a year to work during their training. It isn't an attractive proposition to even get potential nurses to apply and join the NHS.

The starting wage for a band 5 NHS nurse is £13.84 an hour. Around £3 an hour more than then national living wage. Nurses are highly skilled individuals - we don't walk round fluffing pillows and mopping the doctor's brow. If you think that nurses aren't worth £3 above the national living wage whilst ignoring the billions and billions of pounds given by the Tories to the cronies in the PPE scandal then you are part of the problem.

We are campaigning for fair pay. Fair pay = more staff (both recruiting and retaining) = better staffing levels = better patient care.

This post isn't designed to engage further disagreements, I just wanted to give people a little insight as to why we are striking.

[slack_pie]

Being an NHS nurse, I have been on the fence about replying to this thread but reading some of the hugely disappointing, and frankly ludicrous, comments on here I felt compelled to reply.

There are a few comments made that I want to clarify. First of all - and I have heard this from various people - is that we 'signed up for this'. We have had up to a 20% real terms pay cut in the last 10 years. There are 50,000 nursing vacancies across the NHS. Morale & people are shattered. The population is increasing and people are living longer, with more complex needs; the demands on the service are stretched to breaking point and this will only get worse.

When I trained, we were given a bursary (c. £500 a month) to help fund our training (apologies if this is common knowledge but nursing students work for 6 months a year on placements). This was taken away by the Tories and now nursing students have the privilege of paying 9k a year to work during their training. It isn't an attractive proposition to even get potential nurses to apply and join the NHS.

The starting wage for a band 5 NHS nurse is £13.84 an hour. Around £3 an hour more than then national living wage. Nurses are highly skilled individuals - we don't walk round fluffing pillows and mopping the doctor's brow. If you think that nurses aren't worth £3 above the national living wage whilst ignoring the billions and billions of pounds given by the Tories to the cronies in the PPE scandal then you are part of the problem.

We are campaigning for fair pay. Fair pay = more staff (both recruiting and retaining) = better staffing levels = better patient care.

This post isn't designed to engage further disagreements, I just wanted to give people a little insight as to why we are striking.

Thanks for this post and for sharing some first-hand experiences.

I think it's hard for many people, including myself, to understand the issues that NHS staff have and how low morale is. But lots of people are struggling. Real-term pay cuts aren't limited to NHS staff. Real earnings are down nationwide on average 3% in the last quarter alone. Everyone is feeling the pinch.

Most of us operate in industries where if you were to demand more money by not working, you'd simply get fired. And rightly so. So if negotiations with your manager fail, you either accept it or move on to a more lucrative role. Also, many of us work in industries that are increasingly precarious with the onset of automation and AI. It's up to us to figure out what we'll do when the work disappears.

What I'm trying to say is, these are difficult times for all sorts of reasons. Most of us are suffering as well but don't have a way to 'campaign for fairer pay' other than to jump into opportunities that pay more, retrain, or, if we are self-employed, work more.