O/T:- The NHS strike - for or against?

[OchPie]

Votes do have consequences.



From this (superb) article, needs a subscription sadly: https://www.ft.com/content/b2154c20-...7-95d114d31f2b

[cher1]

Time to separate front line workers - nurses, ambulance staff, social workers - from the support staff ... although you can bet your life that unions won't go for that. My daughter is now a prescribing nurse ... you can imagine what she thinks about the situation ... NO MORE MONEY FOR THE NHS; CUT THE ADMIN/MANAGEMENT. It's not unlike the miners contempt for surface workers ... history repeating itself in a different form.

I strongly disagree with this. My only issue with the nurses' strike is that it seems to want to separate nurses pay demands from all other NHS staff. Almost all NHS staff are paid on the same pay scales (A4C). Porters, ward clerks, HCAs, housekeepers are all ***** for good patient care, and paid significantly less. I worked (front line clinical) during a porters' strike years ago and it made me realise how inter-reliant we all were regarding care for patients.

Just focusing the pay fight on nurses also excludes People like physios, OTs, ODPs, SALTs, dieticians etc at infinitum. All are just as ***** as nurses. The focus should be on fair pay across the board, not just one, or a few, groups.

In terms of the NHS overall, maybe we need to radically rethink it. I've had multiple experiences in a European system and it's streets ahead of the UK (and not just the NHS in Tory times). Better outcomes and better patient experience at every step. It would cost us more, are we prepared to pay it?

[cher1]

The starred out word was v i t a l

[Rez1862]

Being an NHS nurse, I have been on the fence about replying to this thread but reading some of the hugely disappointing, and frankly ludicrous, comments on here I felt compelled to reply.

There are a few comments made that I want to clarify. First of all - and I have heard this from various people - is that we 'signed up for this'. We have had up to a 20% real terms pay cut in the last 10 years. There are 50,000 nursing vacancies across the NHS. Morale & people are shattered. The population is increasing and people are living longer, with more complex needs; the demands on the service are stretched to breaking point and this will only get worse.

When I trained, we were given a bursary (c. £500 a month) to help fund our training (apologies if this is common knowledge but nursing students work for 6 months a year on placements). This was taken away by the Tories and now nursing students have the privilege of paying 9k a year to work during their training. It isn't an attractive proposition to even get potential nurses to apply and join the NHS.

The starting wage for a band 5 NHS nurse is £13.84 an hour. Around £3 an hour more than then national living wage. Nurses are highly skilled individuals - we don't walk round fluffing pillows and mopping the doctor's brow. If you think that nurses aren't worth £3 above the national living wage whilst ignoring the billions and billions of pounds given by the Tories to the cronies in the PPE scandal then you are part of the problem.

We are campaigning for fair pay. Fair pay = more staff (both recruiting and retaining) = better staffing levels = better patient care.

This post isn't designed to engage further disagreements, I just wanted to give people a little insight as to why we are striking.

[Robertomac]

This has been a really interesting thread.

I have a few close friends who work within the NHS in varying roles and the general opinion is the same - it doesn't matter how much money you throw at the NHS, it won't solve the problem as most of it is lost through inefficiency and mismanagement.

I agree that the main issue for the strikes is one of staffing rather than pay; clearly a 19% pay increase is never going to happen. My wife is a nurse by training who recently returned to work in the NHS after a prolonged absence whilst our children were little. She lasted just 2 months before jacking it in. The reason was not because it was too busy or unsafe, it was the opposite. She was bored and felt unjustified in being there, on some occasions having just one patient to deal with during a 9hr shift. During her two months, there were several other staff members mentioned who she never met because they were long-term sick.

I agree with the point raised above about nurses requiring a degree. This is a classic case of the law of unintended consequences. Clearly the idea was to raise standards, but the unintended consequences are that it has made entry more expensive and difficult. Nursing is surely more of a vocational occupation and we would be better encouraging school leavers to join through apprenticeships etc. It won't solve the staffing issue overnight, but other than recruitment from abroad, few things will.

Another point discussed above was over the nation's health. We need to have a serious examination of how much money (and other resources) the NHS wastes on avoidable illness - diabetes as an axample. I work in Mansfield and am always concerned by how many morbidly overweight people there are either toddling around or driving mobility scooters. People of working age, not old people. Just yesterday I saw a family where there were 3 generations of morbidly obese out together - grandma (who was probably in her late 40s) in the mobility scooter, mum pushing the pushchair and toddler. It breaks my heart to see as the poor kid will probably be overweight for life and through no fault of his own. I am sure it is not unique to Mansfield either and guess this is a snapshot of most British towns of similar size. If the government devoted more money so that people can access healthy foods, sports and leisure, this would again not solve anything overnight, but it would, over time, reduce the burden on the NHS. I remember Iceland being held up as an example of this after they knocked England out of the Euros. They had suffered from years of alcohol related health and social problems so began investing into sports activities for the young. This had a hugely positive impact on the nation's health, culminating in a small country doing so well at an international football tournament.

Anyway, do I support the strikes? I'm on the fence as I see arguments from both sides and to be honest think it is fairly well balanced. The downside of course means it makes resolution more difficult.

[Chicken Balti Pie]

Being an NHS nurse, I have been on the fence about replying to this thread but reading some of the hugely disappointing, and frankly ludicrous, comments on here I felt compelled to reply.

There are a few comments made that I want to clarify. First of all - and I have heard this from various people - is that we 'signed up for this'. We have had up to a 20% real terms pay cut in the last 10 years. There are 50,000 nursing vacancies across the NHS. Morale & people are shattered. The population is increasing and people are living longer, with more complex needs; the demands on the service are stretched to breaking point and this will only get worse.

When I trained, we were given a bursary (c. £500 a month) to help fund our training (apologies if this is common knowledge but nursing students work for 6 months a year on placements). This was taken away by the Tories and now nursing students have the privilege of paying 9k a year to work during their training. It isn't an attractive proposition to even get potential nurses to apply and join the NHS.

The starting wage for a band 5 NHS nurse is £13.84 an hour. Around £3 an hour more than then national living wage. Nurses are highly skilled individuals - we don't walk round fluffing pillows and mopping the doctor's brow. If you think that nurses aren't worth £3 above the national living wage whilst ignoring the billions and billions of pounds given by the Tories to the cronies in the PPE scandal then you are part of the problem.

We are campaigning for fair pay. Fair pay = more staff (both recruiting and retaining) = better staffing levels = better patient care.

This post isn't designed to engage further disagreements, I just wanted to give people a little insight as to why we are striking.

You miss out all the other bits though. Unsocial hours pay that bumps you up, pretty much guaranteed annual wage rises based on length of service rather than performance, and that is within the bands, you don't even need to move up a band for that increase. Beneficial overtime rates.

Back in the real world, I work in a job that is equally important and keeps the health care "industry" ticking. I will be lucky to get a pay rise this year and if I get one, it will be way below inflation and that will be because in my performance review I am over achieving. I don't get overtime, I'm salaried so any extra time I work is effectively free and my personal performance is actively monitored. I'd love all public sector workers to have these conditions on them, it would certainly drive up efficiency, maybe it's time for the government to implement that?

[slack_pie]

Being an NHS nurse, I have been on the fence about replying to this thread but reading some of the hugely disappointing, and frankly ludicrous, comments on here I felt compelled to reply.

There are a few comments made that I want to clarify. First of all - and I have heard this from various people - is that we 'signed up for this'. We have had up to a 20% real terms pay cut in the last 10 years. There are 50,000 nursing vacancies across the NHS. Morale & people are shattered. The population is increasing and people are living longer, with more complex needs; the demands on the service are stretched to breaking point and this will only get worse.

When I trained, we were given a bursary (c. £500 a month) to help fund our training (apologies if this is common knowledge but nursing students work for 6 months a year on placements). This was taken away by the Tories and now nursing students have the privilege of paying 9k a year to work during their training. It isn't an attractive proposition to even get potential nurses to apply and join the NHS.

The starting wage for a band 5 NHS nurse is £13.84 an hour. Around £3 an hour more than then national living wage. Nurses are highly skilled individuals - we don't walk round fluffing pillows and mopping the doctor's brow. If you think that nurses aren't worth £3 above the national living wage whilst ignoring the billions and billions of pounds given by the Tories to the cronies in the PPE scandal then you are part of the problem.

We are campaigning for fair pay. Fair pay = more staff (both recruiting and retaining) = better staffing levels = better patient care.

This post isn't designed to engage further disagreements, I just wanted to give people a little insight as to why we are striking.

Thanks for this post and for sharing some first-hand experiences.

I think it's hard for many people, including myself, to understand the issues that NHS staff have and how low morale is. But lots of people are struggling. Real-term pay cuts aren't limited to NHS staff. Real earnings are down nationwide on average 3% in the last quarter alone. Everyone is feeling the pinch.

Most of us operate in industries where if you were to demand more money by not working, you'd simply get fired. And rightly so. So if negotiations with your manager fail, you either accept it or move on to a more lucrative role. Also, many of us work in industries that are increasingly precarious with the onset of automation and AI. It's up to us to figure out what we'll do when the work disappears.

What I'm trying to say is, these are difficult times for all sorts of reasons. Most of us are suffering as well but don't have a way to 'campaign for fairer pay' other than to jump into opportunities that pay more, retrain, or, if we are self-employed, work more.

[Rez1862]

You miss out all the other bits though. Unsocial hours pay that bumps you up, pretty much guaranteed annual wage rises based on length of service rather than performance, and that is within the bands, you don't even need to move up a band for that increase. Beneficial overtime rates.

Back in the real world, I work in a job that is equally important and keeps the health care "industry" ticking. I will be lucky to get a pay rise this year and if I get one, it will be way below inflation and that will be because in my performance review I am over achieving. I don't get overtime, I'm salaried so any extra time I work is effectively free and my personal performance is actively monitored. I'd love all public sector workers to have these conditions on them, it would certainly drive up efficiency, maybe it's time for the government to implement that?

So you're saying that people shouldn't be compensated for working nights given the well known adverse effects on health? Or working Christmas and New Years eve?

The second paragraph is a patronising read - it almost sounds as though you are saying that because you aren't getting anything, no-one should be asking for anything more.

[TheBlackHorse]

... it never surprises me that some choose to interpret what is said in their own 'picky' way - yes, I've stood off from commenting too. OK ... for 'nurses' read front line 'hands on' staff - physio's, et al. Yes, a porters job is *****, but earnings of support staff should reflect their capabilities to deliver. It all needs rebalancing. Hell Chicken, public sector becoming efficient - LOL - it's not in their DNA or interests. Lions led by Donkeys, as ever ...

[TheBlackHorse]

... try vit al ...