O/T:- The NHS strike - for or against?

[Rez1862]

Thanks for this post and for sharing some first-hand experiences.

I think it's hard for many people, including myself, to understand the issues that NHS staff have and how low morale is. But lots of people are struggling. Real-term pay cuts aren't limited to NHS staff. Real earnings are down nationwide on average 3% in the last quarter alone. Everyone is feeling the pinch.

Most of us operate in industries where if you were to demand more money by not working, you'd simply get fired. And rightly so. So if negotiations with your manager fail, you either accept it or move on to a more lucrative role. Also, many of us work in industries that are increasingly precarious with the onset of automation and AI. It's up to us to figure out what we'll do when the work disappears.

What I'm trying to say is, these are difficult times for all sorts of reasons. Most of us are suffering as well but don't have a way to 'campaign for fairer pay' other than to jump into opportunities that pay more, retrain, or, if we are self-employed, work more.

Thanks Slack, and nicely put. My intention wasn't to start any further arguments as I appreciate this is a very emotive subject for a lot of people. I didn't want people to think this strike was just about "greedy" nurses wanting a few extra quid in their pockets. We want to be able to look after patients effectively, to actually deliver safe care. Not having to worry about deciding whether to go for a piss and have something to eat vs looking after sick people and ensuring they get treatment, speaking to worried relatives about their families or staying late to make sure all the work has been done as there aren't enough staff to do so when you've gone.

Please don't be drawn in by the Tory gaslighting.

[slack_pie]

Thanks Slack, and nicely put. My intention wasn't to start any further arguments as I appreciate this is a very emotive subject for a lot of people. I didn't want people to think this strike was just about "greedy" nurses wanting a few extra quid in their pockets. We want to be able to look after patients effectively, to actually deliver safe care. Not having to worry about deciding whether to go for a piss and have something to eat vs looking after sick people and ensuring they get treatment, speaking to worried relatives about their families or staying late to make sure all the work has been done as there aren't enough staff to do so when you've gone.

Please don't be drawn in by the Tory gaslighting.

I don't think nurses are greedy at all. My point was lots of people feel they should be paid more, particularly given the increased cost of living, but don't have a mechanism in place to demand it.

For what it's worth, I think it's ridiculous how much nurses and teachers get paid, given how important their jobs are. But given that their wages come from tax revenue, and countries must at least attempt to balance the books rather than run up a massive deficit or cause inflation by devaluing the currency, I'm not sure what the answer is to that problem.

Perhaps if governments were less bloated, wasteful, incompetent, and corrupt, there would be more money to pay public-sector workers a fairer wage. But I don't see that changing, regardless of which party is in power.

[Chicken Balti Pie]

So you're saying that people shouldn't be compensated for working nights given the well known adverse effects on health? Or working Christmas and New Years eve?

The second paragraph is a patronising read - it almost sounds as though you are saying that because you aren't getting anything, no-one should be asking for anything more.

I'm not saying that, I'm saying it's disingenuous to say that the base pay hourly rate is all they get when they will work plenty of nights unless you're a practice nurse or along those lines. If you're shift working, you're not on "base pay" as you're trying to allude to.

And as I've seen massive inefficiency within the NHS (not just management, from nurses and doctors as well!) I'd like to see pay be based on performance rather than you're just an employee. Might retain the better staff and give a kick up the backside to the lower performers, can't ask for that if you're in a union though can you!

[Mapperleypie]

Firstly I completely agree with many of the striking workers. They are being royally shafted along with many of us in this country. To use the argument that many of us deserve a pay increase but disagreeing with those fighting for one for themselves is fuzzy logic at best.

Inflation as it stands is being driven by the lack of labour supply in this country coupled with a seriously depreciated £. Whether folks like to admit it or not Brexit has contributed heavily to both. If we want to attract the best people in this country (and those overseas to come to this country) into essential work we simply need to pay more. If the aim is for a high-wage highly skilled economy then we need a serious amount of wage inflation across the board to achieve this.

As things stand we have many large companies making record profits off the inflation we are all experiencing and a scant amount of this is being passed down to the average Joe making the standard of living in this country much worse for nearly everyone other than the top few percent. Nobody should be an apologist for this state of affairs. It stinks.

[Elite_Pie]

I didn't want people to think this strike was just about "greedy" nurses wanting a few extra quid in their pockets. We want to be able to look after patients effectively, to actually deliver safe care.

That's it exactly. All this Daily Mail stuff about nurses saying they use food banks and they could earn more in a supermarket is just diversion. It takes attention away from the real issue - that we have an NHS where both the organisation and it's staff are at breaking point. As sid pointed out, Sunak and his party (and the opposition too) are in a position where waiting lists and substandard care will never be a problem to them. They are however a problem to millions, and as the graph posted by OchPie shows it's a problem of this government's making.

[Rez1862]

I'm not saying that, I'm saying it's disingenuous to say that the base pay hourly rate is all they get when they will work plenty of nights unless you're a practice nurse or along those lines. If you're shift working, you're not on "base pay" as you're trying to allude to.

And as I've seen massive inefficiency within the NHS (not just management, from nurses and doctors as well!) I'd like to see pay be based on performance rather than you're just an employee. Might retain the better staff and give a kick up the backside to the lower performers, can't ask for that if you're in a union though can you!

But base pay is how much the government or the "independent" pay body feel that a band 5 nurse (or ODP, physio etc) should earn. The unsocial hours are compensation for working unsocial hours. Would you work at 7pm-7am for the same pay as you earned in the day?

I don't disagree re pay increments based on performance - but how do you measure the performance of a medic or a nurse?

[Magpies1959]

Elite_Pie it is not a lie or something I have made up. It came from striking workers in several interviews. Please do not call me a liar, or a fantasist.
To say that it is only Sunak and his Tory mates that will never face health problems caused by their management of the NHS is ridiculous. Labour and politicians from all the other parties will not face health problems the majority of the population do, due to their wages and status. Do not think a Labour government is going to be answer to the NHS's problems.
From personal experience, I would not say the NHS is not bursting at the seams in every department, some areas seem to be crying out for people to treat to keep busy. Like I have said previously along with many others, the whole organisation needs a massive overhaul.

[Elite_Pie]

Elite_Pie it is not a lie or something I have made up. It came from striking workers in several interviews. Please do not call me a liar, or a fantasist.

You are a liar, a fantasist, or both. This is what you said:

"This dispute started as a cry for more pay to stop them using food banks".

That is a blatant lie, and I'm sure you know it. You either made it up or are parroting right wing propaganda. The dispute started because the NHS workers have been pushed over the edge by several years of neglect. Talk of it being to stop them using food banks is plain stupid just because one or two of them may have mentioned it in an interview. Surely you're not that gullible?

"as support for the strike is not so popular now, they are chirping about it now being all about staffing levels and not being able to look after patients in the way they would like".

Another outright lie. Right from the start this has been about staffing levels and patient care just as much as about money.

To say that it is only Sunak and his Tory mates that will never face health problems caused by their management of the NHS is ridiculous.

Except that I didn't say it. It's something else you've made up.

I said "As sid pointed out, Sunak and his party (and the opposition too) are in a position where waiting lists and substandard care will never be a problem to them".

[magpie_mania]

That's it exactly. All this Daily Mail stuff about nurses saying they use food banks and they could earn more in a supermarket is just diversion. It takes attention away from the real issue - that we have an NHS where both the organisation and it's staff are at breaking point. As sid pointed out, Sunak and his party (and the opposition too) are in a position where waiting lists and substandard care will never be a problem to them. They are however a problem to millions, and as the graph posted by OchPie shows it's a problem of this government's making.

It's not from the Daily Mail that I have read this. It's from nurses and union people. Of course, they are not representative of all.

[Elite_Pie]

It's not from the Daily Mail that I have read this. It's from nurses and union people. Of course, they are not representative of all.

How many nurses and how many union people have you heard it from, and how often?

It reminds me of when The Sun do a headline about "Migrant family live in 5-bedroom house and get £1,000 per week in benefits". Some on here have fed on this and said "immigrants come over here for a free ride and to milk our system". It's nowhere near the truth, but some are taken in by it.

This dispute has nothing to do with nurses using food banks or being better paid in a supermarket. I don't doubt these things have been said, but to claim they are the central issue (Magpies1959 not you) is stupid in the extreme. It's about the future of the NHS, and it should be very important to all of us who don't have private medical insurance, because we never know when we'll need it.