Careless Tories!

[Trickytreesreds]

Sorry Tricky, and this isn’t remotely personal, but you couldn’t be more wrong.

Labour invested in the NHS and the Education Service, when they came to power in 1997, as never before and, after 18 or so years of neglect, as a result of Thatcherite policies, we desperately needed it.

The evidence is still there as far as the NHS is concerned...just look locally at the changes made or committed to locally between 1997 and 2010. There’s been little of the sort since and we’re now back to square one in that respect.

As regards Education...I was unfortunate enough to spend 18 of my first 20 odd years of employment working under Thatcher and it was horribly underfunded in every way. When Blair, despite his later undeniable wrongdoings, came to power everything improved enormously.
I don’t recall taxes going up enormously to pay for things but either way - and you won’t like this - I don’t actually object to taxes rising providing the money is spent properly to benefit the people.

Imo having a decent Health Service, a proper Education Service, decent and appropriate provision for the old and weak and a properly funded and uncorrupt Police Force/Service are prerequisites of any civilised society. If it takes higher taxation to provide it then so be it...be open and up front about it...with just two provisos...that it is raised fairly and equitably...and spent wisely and not wastefully.

Perhaps my ‘gripes’ may come down to ‘individuals and personalities’, but they are the ‘individuals and personalities’ who currently dominate government and the Tory Party and that is the whole point.

you seem to have missed the jist of what I am saying RA.

This current Tory party, is far removed from what you could call a Tory party.

Taxes are higher than they've been for 28 years. Forget where they have spent money, spend they have.
Since 2010, they have doubled the national debt.
Tories are supposed to be about growth and business. This lot are scared to embrce it.
They are scared to follow through the freedoms of Brexit. They are scared to control our borders and stop the money drain of leeches flooding in.

Everything they currently do, I would expect a Labour government to be bang in the middle of, as they have in the past.
So I'll say again, you won't get a fag paper between them on current actions.
they are NOT THE CONSERVATIVES OF OLD. They have wasted money all over the place. The individuals have been found out for corruption.
No one ever expects a Tory government to be this stupid. They are usually very regimental in their actions. Now I'm not defending that, but you always knew what to expect.

NB,
An uncorrupt police force? I remember mentioning this over a year ago, and you said you didn't believe the police were corrupt and where was my evidence? You have obviously changed your mind. Has something happened?


But like I said, I want the system ripped apart.
Politicians think that once they are in power, they can do what they want. That includes Labour as well as the Tories, your beloved Blair proved that.
They get away with murder, until the heat gets too much and it is their piers who force them out, in protection of their own positions.

[ramAnag]

you seem to have missed the jist of what I am saying RA.

This current Tory party, is far removed from what you could call a Tory party.

Taxes are higher than they've been for 28 years. Forget where they have spent money, spend they have.
Since 2010, they have doubled the national debt.
Tories are supposed to be about growth and business. This lot are scared to embrce it.
They are scared to follow through the freedoms of Brexit. They are scared to control our borders and stop the money drain of leeches flooding in.

Everything they currently do, I would expect a Labour government to be bang in the middle of, as they have in the past.
So I'll say again, you won't get a fag paper between them on current actions.
they are NOT THE CONSERVATIVES OF OLD. They have wasted money all over the place. The individuals have been found out for corruption.
No one ever expects a Tory government to be this stupid. They are usually very regimental in their actions. Now I'm not defending that, but you always knew what to expect.

NB,
An uncorrupt police force? I remember mentioning this over a year ago, and you said you didn't believe the police were corrupt and where was my evidence? You have obviously changed your mind. Has something happened?


But like I said, I want the system ripped apart.
Politicians think that once they are in power, they can do what they want. That includes Labour as well as the Tories, your beloved Blair proved that.
They get away with murder, until the heat gets too much and it is their piers who force them out, in protection of their own positions.

Don’t think I’ve missed your ‘jist’, Tricky.

Point by point...everything we’re talking about revolves around the CURRENT Tory Party. That’s what matters...the Tory Party that has been in power for approaching 13 years and the same Tory Party that is responsible for the Brexit shambles. Whatever they once were has nothing to do with the UK in 2023.

Not sure how far you want to go back to your ‘CONSERVATIVES OF OLD’...Douglas-Home, Ted Heath, or maybe 1979 and the advent of Thatcherism? That too, as I remember, ended in tears too with Labour’s 1997 landslide victory followed by 13 years of Labour government.

You can try and disguise them however you like but today’s Conservatives are the Tory Party that we are concerned with in this thread.

To say Labour would embrace the same policies is just senseless. Were nurses, doctors, teachers, ambulance drivers etc (even bloody Ofsted this week!) on strike under Labour?

I don’t recall commenting on the police force before but you may be right and I’ll admit I’ve been shocked by some of, to me, the ‘recent’ revelations about the Met.

To be clear, ‘my beloved Blair’ isn’t actually fair. I fully accept that later in his career, when in cahoots with Bush, he was appallingly lacking in terms of integrity and dishonesty. In that respect he was deeply flawed, but what I also remember is that in 1997 he provided the light at the end of the Thatcherite ‘tunnel’. I cannot at any stage of my life time remember any other PM making such a positive difference than that brought about by that first Blair and Brown administration.

[Trickytreesreds]

Don’t think I’ve missed your ‘jist’, Tricky.

Point by point...everything we’re talking about revolves around the CURRENT Tory Party. That’s what matters...the Tory Party that has been in power for approaching 13 years and the same Tory Party that is responsible for the Brexit shambles. Whatever they once were has nothing to do with the UK in 2023.

Not sure how far you want to go back to your ‘CONSERVATIVES OF OLD’...Douglas-Home, Ted Heath, or maybe 1979 and the advent of Thatcherism? That too, as I remember, ended in tears too with Labour’s 1997 landslide victory followed by 13 years of Labour government.

You can try and disguise them however you like but today’s Conservatives are the Tory Party that we are concerned with in this thread.

To say Labour would embrace the same policies is just senseless. Were nurses, doctors, teachers, ambulance drivers etc (even bloody Ofsted this week!) on strike under Labour?

I don’t recall commenting on the police force before but you may be right and I’ll admit I’ve been shocked by some of, to me, the ‘recent’ revelations about the Met.

To be clear, ‘my beloved Blair’ isn’t actually fair. I fully accept that later in his career, when in cahoots with Bush, he was appallingly lacking in terms of integrity and dishonesty. In that respect he was deeply flawed, but what I also remember is that in 1997 he provided the light at the end of the Thatcherite ‘tunnel’. I cannot at any stage of my life time remember any other PM making such a positive difference than that brought about by that first Blair and Brown administration.

I don't disagree, but that is my very point.
The current Tory party are as far removed from Torys as you can get.
They would barely be regarded as central at the moment. There is no control/discipline/ decisivness about any of them.

As for your strikers. Oh please, striking is synonymous under Labour control. The Unions of today, have lost their clout, that they had with heavy industry. So they have shifted their gaze to the civil services and public services.
Yes the Tory party is responsible for the Brexit shambles. By sabotaging it from within, instead of driving it the way it supposed to go.
But that is an electoral topic , obe for which they will pay for. The voters who pushed that, won't be jumping into Labours camp either. Flip Flop isn't the man to follow it through either.

[ramAnag]

I don't disagree, but that is my very point.
The current Tory party are as far removed from Torys as you can get.
They would barely be regarded as central at the moment. There is no control/discipline/ decisivness about any of them.

As for your strikers. Oh please, striking is synonymous under Labour control. The Unions of today, have lost their clout, that they had with heavy industry. So they have shifted their gaze to the civil services and public services.
Yes the Tory party is responsible for the Brexit shambles. By sabotaging it from within, instead of driving it the way it supposed to go.
But that is an electoral topic , obe for which they will pay for. The voters who pushed that, won't be jumping into Labours camp either. Flip Flop isn't the man to follow it through either.

No they’re not...they’re the epitome of all that is wrong with the old fashioned ‘landed gentry’ version of Conservatism where they are gradually creating a scenario where the workers have to go ‘cap in hand’ to their ‘masters’.

All you’re objecting to is the lack of tax cutting policies, but when society’s essential workers begin to react in the way they are there is something very seriously wrong. These are not workers with a reputation for taking strike action.

Striking is ‘synonymous with Labour’...I’d have another look at the last fifty years if I were you...and again we’re not talking about the past...we’re talking about the here and now. Labour haven’t been in power since 2010...stop trying to shift the blame.

Brexit and the next GE? We’ll see...but if the referendum were to be held again (I know it won’t be) do you honestly think you’d win?
Not a snowball’s...a good proportion of those who swallowed the lies have either died or recognised the giant con that was Brexit.

Assuming you’re referring to Starmer as ‘flip flop’. No idea why. To me he seems a decent man. I don’t agree with everything he says but I’ll forgive his relative lack of ‘personality’ if it means we have someone with some intelligence and integrity running the country. Fed up of personality politics...Johnson and Farage are both allegedly ‘charismatic’. For me...whoever thinks that is confusing ‘charisma’ with ‘charlatan’.