OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[ramAnag]

No its not. Yourself, Swale, GP, TTR, MA and I haven't moved an inch (millimetre) in six years, Ramshank and Sithappens are newcomers who's opinion appears already to have been formed before joining our happy throng.

We’ll have to differ on this one, AF. The vociferous pro Brexit contingent...eg Southern and Angry etc have disappeared...presumably no longer able to defend their cause.
The ‘shoulder shruggers’...eg you and GP, who voted Remain but have since defended Brexit - and been responsible for much of the argument and many of the subsequent approaching nine thousand (!) posts - have changed.
Only a few days ago GP, perhaps inadvertently, placed Brexit in the same category as Covid and Putin, you can’t get much more damning than that and there is now just one (TTR) determined defender of the Brexit shambles on the forum.
Swale and I have been nothing if not consistent, as has MA, although he has a slightly more nuanced take on proceedings.
I don’t think the views of Ramshank and Sith should be dismissed because they are comparative ‘newcomers’. I suspect Ramshank is a ‘returnee’ anyway, but maybe their different views reflect the age gap as I think Sith is our youngest member.

Beyond that it seems Triz has been the real soothsayer. In post #46 of the 8769 on 5/7/16 he wrote, ‘...the next decade is going to be rough’.
I doubt even he could have predicted a pandemic and Putin - though you never know with Triz - but with 65% or so of that decade now behind us...he was absolutely right.

[swaledale]

Ah I see where your coming from, the only problem is I didn't mention Hitler's aims or attempt to compare those to this government.

Possibly I wasn't clear enough, that my main point is that Hitler succeeded due to the attitude of the "Good Germans" accepting what was happening and in part thinking either there is nothing I can do about it but just accept it and move or actually agreeing with most of what was said and ignoring the actions that may be they weren't entirely comfortable with, but thought "it doesn't affect me" so I'm not bothered.

I was pointing out that your attitude of "suck it up" and carry on, can have consequences, often ones that take a time to become apparent. Now it can be perhaps excused in those that don't have the intellectual capacity to rationalise what is happening, or whose lives are so ****, that they just want someone to promise things will get better. The connection between educational attainment, deprivation etc. and the 2016 vote has been clearly identified.

That the Tories (and others on the right) have used this tactic to further their aims (and the aims of the elite who back them) with no real intent to improve these peoples lives beyond that necessary to keep them voting Tory (or UKIP) has been obvious for decades.

The other comparison that can be made, is that of right wing elites who remain in the background but manipulate politicians to implement policies that favour them and keep the left down.

This was certainly the case in Germany where the right wing elites saw Hitler as a useful stooge to remove left wing and communist influence. Unfortunately they underestimated his ability and capability for manipulating power through both political and violent means. The left as is often the case. were too split and obsessed with ideology to resist.

If one looks at the play book of right wing leaders and parties including Trump and Bolsenaro in Brazil, there are some real worrying factors at play, I mean who would ever have thought a US President would refuse to hand over power in a respectful way? Yet millions of Amerians and many Republicans still support him. Who would have believed that a UK Prime Minister would attempt to porogue parliament illegally? Or would demonstrate and willingness to blatantly ignore rules, accepted standards and repeatedly lie?

So no I wasn't suggesting that the Tory government are currently on a par with Hitler, I was suggesting that Hitler was enabled by the "good germans" who didn't protest and the right wing elites who backed him initially. But how he got to where he did and the fall out from that (a world war) wasn't envisaged by most of the players in the first decades of his ascent to power.

Just one other point, isn't acceptance (as it seems by many people) that people in the UK, the 5th richest country in the world, of food banks and people unable to heat their homes, unable to access health care, a callous and disorganised approach to asylum seekers and thousands dying an appalling situation?

[swaledale]

We’ll have to differ on this one, AF. The vociferous pro Brexit contingent...eg Southern and Angry etc have disappeared...presumably no longer able to defend their cause.
The ‘shoulder shruggers’...eg you and GP, who voted Remain but have since defended Brexit - and been responsible for much of the argument and many of the subsequent approaching nine thousand (!) posts - have changed.
Only a few days ago GP, perhaps inadvertently, placed Brexit in the same category as Covid and Putin, you can’t get much more damning than that and there is now just one (TTR) determined defender of the Brexit shambles on the forum.
Swale and I have been nothing if not consistent, as has MA, although he has a slightly more nuanced take on proceedings.
I don’t think the views of Ramshank and Sith should be dismissed because they are comparative ‘newcomers’. I suspect Ramshank is a ‘returnee’ anyway, but maybe their different views reflect the age gap as I think Sith is our youngest member.

Beyond that it seems Triz has been the real soothsayer. In post #46 of the 8769 on 5/7/16 he wrote, ‘...the next decade is going to be rough’.
I doubt even he could have predicted a pandemic and Putin - though you never know with Triz - but with 65% or so of that decade now behind us...he was absolutely right.

There is another point rA, which is that what people say and especially what they admit to on a forum such as this, is not necessarily indicative of what they actually believe.

The fact is as time goes on and as demonstrated by the events now over the NI Protocol, the lies and utter incompetence/dishonesty over Brexit and the deal subsequently done is becoming more obvious all the time and Begret is being felt by many who voted leave.

In the end, reality will sink in, the Uk will find a fudge that enables access to the single market and probably the Customs Union.

[Andy_Faber]

Ah I see where you’re coming from, the only problem is I didn't mention Hitler's aims

Sorry but you did and that was the whole basis of my reply

You said:
‘ as Hitler took power and gradually implemented his aims ‘

[Andy_Faber]

We’ll have to differ on this one, AF. The vociferous pro Brexit contingent...eg Southern and Angry etc have disappeared...presumably no longer able to defend their cause.
The ‘shoulder shruggers’...eg you and GP, who voted Remain but have since defended Brexit - and been responsible for much of the argument and many of the subsequent approaching nine thousand (!) posts - have changed.
Only a few days ago GP, perhaps inadvertently, placed Brexit in the same category as Covid and Putin, you can’t get much more damning than that and there is now just one (TTR) determined defender of the Brexit shambles on the forum.
Swale and I have been nothing if not consistent, as has MA, although he has a slightly more nuanced take on proceedings.
I don’t think the views of Ramshank and Sith should be dismissed because they are comparative ‘newcomers’. I suspect Ramshank is a ‘returnee’ anyway, but maybe their different views reflect the age gap as I think Sith is our youngest member.

Beyond that it seems Triz has been the real soothsayer. In post #46 of the 8769 on 5/7/16 he wrote, ‘...the next decade is going to be rough’.
I doubt even he could have predicted a pandemic and Putin - though you never know with Triz - but with 65% or so of that decade now behind us...he was absolutely right.

….and that, in a nutshell, is why Brexit happened and why the US had four years of Trump. Those who shout loudest and longest dont always prevail, your argument is thus flawed but yes we’ll just have to differ on this

Edit on a wider point my understanding is that a) liberal voices in general are louder than conservative ones, certainly in U.K, and b) the population gets more conservative as if ages. I’ve seen reports on this but can’t find any ti provide provenance to my post

[Geoff Parkstone]

I don't believe either Southern or Angry's disappearance from the forum have anything to do with being unable to defend Brexit! Neither individual ever backed down from an opinion and they certainly wouldn't leave the forum over such an issue! That's frankly preposterous.

Also please don't put words in my mouth. Brexit COVID and Putin have unquestionably had short term impacts on our current economic malaise. How short term remains to be seen. But I have said all along that Brexit is, in my view, a long game. There were always going to be short term disadvantages, and this we have seen. If a longer term benefit emerges remains an unknown. I'm not convinced, but most thinking Brexiteers - and I know a few - remain confident that it will come good, economically, in time .

Meanwhile the USE spectre has been eased into history.

So has my mind been changed in the last 3 years. No, it is what it is. I was a fence sitter who eventually fell off the fence onto the losing side. I got back up, dusted myself off and endeavour to make the best of the hand we've been dealt.

On the other hand, the Duprass twins were always on the losing side and continue to whine on. Have any of us, regardless of attitude, done anything to change anyone else's minds in this microcosm of opinion makers? I doubt it, either here or in the real world.

You may call it shoulder shrugging, I may call it pragmatism. The reality is that Brexit has had no material impact on my lifestyle, standard of living or day to day activities. Hence I see no point in angst ridden reactions to the odd minor inconvenience.

So in summary - 9000 posts have not changed my thoughts an iota. No more so than conspiracy theorists influenced my thoughts on COVID vaccines. Other people may have changed their views, maybe even because of your rhetoric and argument, rA, but they were probably fence sitters that leant towards the winning side in 2016

[swaledale]

Sorry but you did and that was the whole basis of my reply

You said:
‘ as Hitler took power and gradually implemented his aims ‘

Yes I did your correct. However, you have taken it right out of context, as I absolutely did not compare them to what the Tory party policies are, I mentioned Hitler and the "Good Germans" in respect of people enabling these aims to be achieved by the people doing nothing but adopting the attitude of "sucking it up" and getting on with things.

[swaledale]

….and that, in a nutshell, is why Brexit happened and why the US had four years of Trump. Those who shout loudest and longest dont always prevail, your argument is thus flawed but yes we’ll just have to differ on this

Edit on a wider point my understanding is that a) liberal voices in general are louder than conservative ones, certainly in U.K, and b) the population gets more conservative as if ages. I’ve seen reports on this but can’t find any ti provide provenance to my post

Define Liberal? It means many things to many people and has quite different meanings at opposite ends of the political spectrum.

If by Liberal you mean left leaning, then that's certainly not true - given that the majority of the media is owned by right wing millionaires and relentlessly pushes a right wing agenda.

Even the BBC is and always has been (there has never been a Labour Chair) centre right at best and actively Tory at worst - most of its senior management has very close Tory connections.

Indeed if one is to look closer, there is evidence that in London and other urban areas, there is a decidedly left leaning view, but elsewhere in the UK it is the conservative view that holds sway, especially in county towns and rural areas.

It is certainly true that as people get older their views become more conservative, hence why the Tory party panders to older people. An example is the ID system for voting at elections there are obvious inconsistencies in the ID that's valid for younger and older voters and indeed many more acceptable forms of ID for older persons. As in Senior railcard OK, Student railcard not OK!

[swaledale]

I don't believe either Southern or Angry's disappearance from the forum have anything to do with being unable to defend Brexit! Neither individual ever backed down from an opinion and they certainly wouldn't leave the forum over such an issue! That's frankly preposterous.

Also please don't put words in my mouth. Brexit COVID and Putin have unquestionably had short term impacts on our current economic malaise. How short term remains to be seen. But I have said all along that Brexit is, in my view, a long game. There were always going to be short term disadvantages, and this we have seen. If a longer term benefit emerges remains an unknown. I'm not convinced, but most thinking Brexiteers - and I know a few - remain confident that it will come good, economically, in time .

Meanwhile the USE spectre has been eased into history.

So has my mind been changed in the last 3 years. No, it is what it is. I was a fence sitter who eventually fell off the fence onto the losing side. I got back up, dusted myself off and endeavour to make the best of the hand we've been dealt.

On the other hand, the Duprass twins were always on the losing side and continue to whine on. Have any of us, regardless of attitude, done anything to change anyone else's minds in this microcosm of opinion makers? I doubt it, either here or in the real world.

You may call it shoulder shrugging, I may call it pragmatism. The reality is that Brexit has had no material impact on my lifestyle, standard of living or day to day activities. Hence I see no point in angst ridden reactions to the odd minor inconvenience.

So in summary - 9000 posts have not changed my thoughts an iota. No more so than conspiracy theorists influenced my thoughts on COVID vaccines. Other people may have changed their views, maybe even because of your rhetoric and argument, rA, but they were probably fence sitters that leant towards the winning side in 2016

"The reality is that Brexit has no material impact on my lifestyle" - ah the "Good German" syndrome. Except of course that is more than likely not the case. I accept you may have not noticed them or indeed you may have adjusted to the issues without noticing them.

That of course is how things deteriorate, people accept that, there no fruit and vegetables in the shops, it sometimes takes longer to travel abroad, its more expensive to travel, energy is more expensive than elsewhere, you cant access a dentist or a Dr, or you or a relative doesn't get treatment in a hospital soon enough. There are many incremental ways in which Brexit impacts upon people, for others, framers, businesses that used to export to the EU, health staff who cope with staff shortages etc etc. of course the impact is more dramatic, but as the "Good Germans" observed, yes we would prefer some things not to be happening, but they are happening to other people and not impacting upon my lifestyle so I'm not bothered!

Of course what's been written on this Forum doesn't change anything, it might cause some people to think and it might show that some peoples level of thinking is somewhat introspective and self absorbed. But what it has done is entertained those of us that knew brexit was going to be a **** show and its always nice to be proven right!

[swaledale]

Do the Tories understand irony?

Sunak praising his new agreement with the EU on NI, because NI will be the only place in the world that is both outside and inside the single market which will give it a unique economic opportunity!!

I mean who knew that having access to the single market was economically advantageous to the UK???