Careless Tories!

[Andy_Faber]

I don’t feel strongly one way or the other about her, but the voting record in Scotland over recent years would suggest that’s not true. What I’d further suggest is that the SNP are some way behind the ruling government of the UK in terms of both importance and the madness you speak of.

I’m only relaying a feeling based on a small and possibly biased sample, although I DO get the impression that many repeatedly vote SNP based on one issue only

[MadAmster]

The SNP overall policy doesn't ring everybody's bell. However, it seems a majority of Scots, based on Scots I know so not a huge sample, want independence and understand, correctly IMO, that the best way to get that is the SNP in charge. Once Indy has happened, all Scottish parties will have their own ideas of the way forward. That's when Scottish politics will change, SNP will still be larg(ish?) but others will have more say in affairs.

IMO, it's not a question of IF but WHEN indy is achieved.

[SithHappens]

Opinion polls don't seem to support that most wish to see them become independent.

I do feel that as they (and NI) both voted to stay in the EU that should either or both want another referendum then they should be allowed.

[Andy_Faber]

Opinion polls don't seem to support that most wish to see them become independent.

I do feel that as they (and NI) both voted to stay in the EU that should either or both want another referendum then they should be allowed.

As I said it’s not a very big sample although (again my guess) pro independence Scots may be more inclined to share their opinion than pro union. That’s how it went with Brexit, Trump and the 2015 election all featured one side less inclined to declare their intentions than the other

[ramAnag]

As I said it’s not a very big sample although (again my guess) pro independence Scots may be more inclined to share their opinion than pro union. That’s how it went with Brexit, Trump and the 2015 election all featured one side less inclined to declare their intentions than the other

Which is much the same as saying that those with the most controversial views are the most vociferous. Not sure about the 2015 election, but certainly, as you suggest, the case with Brexit and Trump (both in victory and defeat) and, imo, Farage and Johnson too. All a case of, apparently now proven, empty vessels making the most noise.
May well be true too of those seeking Scottish independence. As Sith says...the most recent polls don’t support the notion of huge/winning support for Independence and I can see them following the Welsh example of greater devolution but ultimately remaining in a ‘unified’ UK.

[Andy_Faber]

Which is much the same as saying that those with the most controversial views are the most vociferous. Not sure about the 2015 election, but certainly, as you suggest, the case with Brexit and Trump (both in victory and defeat) and, imo, Farage and Johnson too. All a case of, apparently now proven, empty vessels making the most noise.
May well be true too of those seeking Scottish independence. As Sith says...the most recent polls don’t support the notion of huge/winning support for Independence and I can see them following the Welsh example of greater devolution but ultimately remaining in a ‘unified’ UK.

that wasn't really what I was saying. In all those examples there were loudmouths on both sides, I was referring to prediction of voter intentions (polling), where more 'conservative' folk are more inclined to decline to offer their opinions to pollsters, in fact I recall that this inclination was factored into many polls prior to the last UK election (not that it would have made much difference in such a non-marginal result).

[swaledale]

So Raab goes, if not quietly and in a dignified way. Those right wing commentators/journos paid to push Tory propaganda squeal loudly overlooking the fact it was an independent investigation by a KC, but hey it seems bullying, lying and generally ignoring the rules is just runof the mill for this lot!

[Trickytreesreds]

So Raab goes, if not quietly and in a dignified way. Those right wing commentators/journos paid to push Tory propaganda squeal loudly overlooking the fact it was an independent investigation by a KC, but hey it seems bullying, lying and generally ignoring the rules is just runof the mill for this lot!

Full credit for going, but I don't believe it is for the reasons you want. More a protest of a civil service, thinking its the tail wagging the dog.

Its been getting away with murder for years. Most of that lot, are still sat on their arses at home.

ITV News has spoken to several people who have worked with Mr Raab throughout his career from being a backbench MP to a junior minister and Secretary of State

Among the testimonies were:

A former ministry of justice official who said, "He was the most difficult minister I've ever had to work with. He saw the system as the enemy rather than as a team of people to be led and directed. There wasn't the sense you were in the same team and I can see how this led to frustration."

Another former colleague, from a previous role held by Mr Raab, argued that he turned the office into "a happy, productive place to a miserable hole." They added, "Not all bullies scream - they are sarcastic, demeaning and controlling."

But others denied Mr Raab is a bully, insisting he simply had high standards. One told ITV News he was kind, organising events for staff like joke Christmas awards and a summer barbecue each year, branded the "Raab-ecue".

Mr Raab himself has maintained he has always had excellent relationships with civil servants across government and has always acted with professionalism and integrity.

He has also pointed out that after complaints were made, he was the one to immediately request an independent inquiry.

[SithHappens]

Personally can't see anything in what I've read that suggests systematic bullying. He's clearly a hard task master.

Maybe his language could have been better. I presume as Sir Kier has criticised the slowness of response by Sunak he will sack Raynor for using language like 'scum' when referring to parliamentary colleagues.

I think the way politicians talk about or too each other is horrific, if it was in any other business they wouldn't last 5 minutes.

[swaledale]

Personally can't see anything in what I've read that suggests systematic bullying. He's clearly a hard task master.

Maybe his language could have been better. I presume as Sir Kier has criticised the slowness of response by Sunak he will sack Raynor for using language like 'scum' when referring to parliamentary colleagues.

I think the way politicians talk about or too each other is horrific, if it was in any other business they wouldn't last 5 minutes.

Except the Kc's report finds 2 allegations proven, not enough evidence re the other complaints, but thats not surprising in an HR context when its he/she said etc. with few witnesses. The report which is written without bias also says that he was clearly abusive, aggressive and intimidating and he has track record of acting like that, as well as being bloody sue less at whatever job he has done.

So its not a case of he might moderate his language its his behaviour, I ahve to say reading that report, in any business it would be dismissal for gross misconduct, systematic or not he clearly is a bully.

I rather think Rayner was describing the Tory party as a whole as scum! Not her parliamentary colleagues and frankly given how they have ****ed up this country, lied, broken rules and given contracts and peerages and knighthoods to their backers, that is too weak a word to describe them.

But politics is by its nature a rough game, which is fine where politicians are trading insults or blows with each other, its not acceptable for a person in power to behave as Raab has proven to have done with staff that are junior to him.

There was also a time when a Minister or indeed any politician found guilty of any wrongdoing would quietly accept it. That has been blown out of the window by a generation of spoilt brats who are the first to shriek its "not fair" when they are on the receiving end of what they dish out!!