O/T:- Banks

[countygump]

The vote may have been democratic, but the whole thing was sold on a pack of lies and scare stories from both sides.

History has shown that the best liars won, because nothing they promised has happened.



And you need to give your head a wobble if you don't think Brexit has played a huge part in that turmoil.

I can agree with this^^^

Personally I think the " turmoil in society" was caused by the actual Brexit debate and vote itself. 50% of people, (or nigh on) on the winning side and 50% not. That's an absolute recipe for turmoil. Looking back, it prob wasn't a very good idea to hold the vote in the 1st place, but, that's beyond our pay grade. I think Parl missed a trick with May's, Brexit-Lite, version of Brexit, which I think would have satisfied the majority of people. There would have been a fair few moans and groans, but I imagine that would have been a lot more acceptable and fairer to both sides, with the vote being so close, than what we ultimately ended up with.

[Magpies1959]

Good to get some interesting, differing views on this thread, leaving out the abusive one from BFP

[Jeekay56]

Good to get some interesting, differing views on this thread, leaving out the abusive one from BFP

You'd never post abuse would you?

[BigFatPie]

Good to get some interesting, differing views on this thread, leaving out the abusive one from BFP

Abusive? To Farage? Believe me, I could be a lot more abusive that that to that bloke.

As I said on the other thread, there seems to zero introspection from the people who voted for both Johnson and Brexit about why they vote for the things and people they do. Instead it’s now ‘they’re all as bad as each other’ or the ‘whole system wants tearing down’, as if they weren’t warned about what would happen when you vote for stupid things and stupid people.

I agree Starmer isn’t the most inspiring of characters, but I would really prefer to judge him on what he does in government rather than what he says in opposition. The Tories have had a very good crack of the whip and their achievements amount to precisely nothing.

[MarcusCole]

Abusive? To Farage? Believe me, I could be a lot more abusive that that to that bloke.

As I said on the other thread, there seems to zero introspection from the people who voted for both Johnson and Brexit about why they vote for the things and people they do. Instead it’s now ‘they’re all as bad as each other’ or the ‘whole system wants tearing down’, as if they weren’t warned about what would happen when you vote for stupid things and stupid people.

I agree Starmer isn’t the most inspiring of characters, but I would really prefer to judge him on what he does in government rather than what he says in opposition. The Tories have had a very good crack of the whip and their achievements amount to precisely nothing.

That beginning comes across as a threat of violence. People like you are the cause for so much that is wrong with this world, you are so sure you are right that you demand the silencing of those that disagree with you, preferable through those threats of violence.

I would bet that most of the people in the country coldn't care less for Farange but we agree with the principle of "I disagree with what you say but will defend your right to say it. So we don't want him silenced or cancelled.

I would love there to be a Party I could get behind but I see them all as Garbarge, the Tories may be corrupt and useless, feckless to the ultimate point but they are not Labour. Labour has abandonded the working class of this country, they see us as Gammons (as someone has already used on this thread). They state they are for women's rights but cannot define what a woman is, they use terms such as Gender Affirming care when what that actually means is genital mutilation and they really want to impose this on children. If Labour gets in I a truely scared they will impose the crazyness that has taken over in places like Canada and California.

[Elite_Pie]

That beginning comes across as a threat of violence.

That's a pretty big assumption to make.

And a bit of an odd one.

[Newish Pie]

I don't blame most people for voting for Brexit... the Leave Campaign presented a seductive vision where we could have all the advantages of being in the EU while being free to make more of our own rules and make more trade deals outside of the EU. They need us more than we need them, they said... easiest trade deal in the world, they said. We hold all the cards, they said. Sunlight uplands, they said. If - instinctively, you're not an internationalist and don't feel European, what's not to like? Why wouldn't you vote for that?

Problem is, all this turned out to be untrue. I don't blame the people who believed it... I blame the people who sold it. Either... (a) they knew it was nonsense, but said it anyway for personal or political advantage; (b) in spite of being in positions of responsibility and influence, they were still ill-informed; or (c) a mixture of both, held together with wishful thinking.

The other people I blame are the media, for failing to hold the liars and the charlatans to proper account. And the 'Remain' campaign who failed to nail the nonsense, and worse, failed to make a clear, positive case for remaining in terms of our freedoms, shared sovereignty, and shared prosperity. And some of the worst of the "remainers", who'd rather sneer at people who voted leave than understand the reasons and learn any lessons. Just because all racists voted for Brexit, doesn't mean everyone who voted for Brexit is a racist.

Oh, and David Cameron. For allowing what was a niche issue for most voters outside the endless Conservative Party psychodrama and putting party interest before country and gambling on a referendum (for a second time) and then making a horrible mess of it.

And as a result of all this, we end up not with a Conservative government, but with a Conservative government drawn from a sub-section of their party, with all or most of the pro-Europeans, the One Nations, the sensible, reasonable Tories purged or driven out. It's the Tory equivalent of a Corbyn-only version of Labour. And the talent pool on that wing of the Tory party... it's not deep. The same would be true of a government drawn solely from the left of the Labour Party.

At the same time, with the Brexit campaign and Johnson, we've had the Trump-isation of British politics. We've always had spin, but the Tories plumbed new depths with dishonest campaigning, lying to the Queen, lying to Parliament, lying about PPE contracts, and basically trying to defend the indefensible.

The Tories need to go. They need a long spell in opposition to recover their energies and re*****ise their talent pool - though I fear if/when they lose they'll only get worse. Anyone imagine the next Tory leader is going to be as sane as Sunak, who is at least on nodding acquaintance with reality, rather than some Tufton Street thinktank crank with reality-resistent economic policies like Truss.

Time for a Labour government. I'd agree about not getting your hopes up... plans are uninspiring at the moment, but Labour tend to be ultra-cautious about what they promise because the vast majority of the media are against them, and that's only got worse over recent years. They're hoping to do as little as possible and say as little as possible, but I hope what we'll see is a more ambitious and radical Labour party in government. That's what I really regret about New Labour... having done a lot of brilliant stuff (Sure Start, Northern Ireland, regional devolution, minimum wage and so on) very quietly, they didn't kick on and become more radical... having established their competence, going to the electorate and saying "we've shown we can be trusted, trust us to do more."

Another reason not to get your hopes up is because everything is such a mess and there's no easy fix for any of it, beyond putting medium and long term plans in place for the NHS/social care/productivity, alleviating poverty, trying to find a fair way to move to zero carbon where the costs fall on those with the ability to pay. Labour can't fix Brexit damage (not yet, anyway), they can't solve Ukraine, and they can't undo post-pandemic damage and disruption.

[Newish Pie]

That beginning comes across as a threat of violence. People like you are the cause for so much that is wrong with this world, you are so sure you are right that you demand the silencing of those that disagree with you, preferable through those threats of violence.

I would bet that most of the people in the country coldn't care less for Farange but we agree with the principle of "I disagree with what you say but will defend your right to say it. So we don't want him silenced or cancelled.

I would love there to be a Party I could get behind but I see them all as Garbarge, the Tories may be corrupt and useless, feckless to the ultimate point but they are not Labour. Labour has abandonded the working class of this country, they see us as Gammons (as someone has already used on this thread). They state they are for women's rights but cannot define what a woman is, they use terms such as Gender Affirming care when what that actually means is genital mutilation and they really want to impose this on children. If Labour gets in I a truely scared they will impose the crazyness that has taken over in places like Canada and California.

I'd say it's a turn of phrase, to be taken metaphorically rather than literally.

I agree about Farage... unless the bank has concerned about Russian money or other legitimate reasons, they shouldn't be refusing him service because of his politics alone. But it's odd how at least some of the people rushing to his banner would also allow exceptions for Christian B&B owners, cake makers etc when it comes to providing services to gay people.

I also kind of agree about Labour abandoning the working classes. I think there's space for Labour to support anti-racism (not least because a lot of members of ethnic minority groups are also working class), gay rights, trans rights, womens' rights, fight discrimination in all its forms while also championing the interests of the working class and the lot of the poorest and most vulnerable in our society. But they've got it badly wrong both in terms of (a) working class representation in Parliament; and (b) policies to improve the lot of ordinary people, and especially not opposing Tory attacks on them.

I'm not sure what I think about the term "Gammons". On the one hand, it's quite funny and gives people a bit of a taste of what it feels like to be on the receiving end. On the other,... I'm not sure it helps persuade anyone. Incidentally, I think people use it to refer to a particular sub-group of angry people with borderline (or actual) racist views... it's not about every working class person.

As for the rest about trans rights, I think there's some confusion there. Labour don't want to impose genital mutilation on children... it's really that simple. It's also possible to be in favour of women's rights and be in favour of trans rights. There's a debate that's gone completely nuts... as I understand it, there's a tiny minority of people who are born with a distinct and overwhelming sense that they've been born into the wrong body. It's possible to a certain extent to try to imagine what that's like, but it's impossible ever to know. The feeling of being born into the wrong body is so overwhelming that it can, has, and does lead to depression, self-mutiliation, and suicide.

Think of it this way. How bad, how overwhelming would that feeling of wrongness have to be to make the option of having major surgery and/or living and dressing according to what you consider to be your true identity be a better option? Think about how difficult life must be for people with those feeling, so that the option of risking public ridicule, abuse, violence, stares, mockery every time you step out of the door is a better choice?

What's needed is a calm, sensible, careful discussion about how we help people who are transgender. Many people feel this way from a very early age, so there's the option of preventing or delaying puberty, which can be hugely distressing for obvious reasons. This should be based on the medical evidence alone. And we've got social questions too... toilets, prisons, changing rooms, top level sport. All these are difficult questions that... again... need a sensible discussion about what's fair and what protects everyone. And that's exactly what's not happening at the moment.

[Magpies1959]

Good post Marcus.

[countygump]

Good post Marcus.

Agreed.

Interesting fred as well.

As it happens, I've always had feeling of being born into the wrong body. I could have sworn I should have been born a Rothschild.

Sorry............