Matchday thread: Derby v Fleetwood

[SithHappens]

I don’t think we’re there yet, but a few more home failures and a continuation of the disappointing form shown in March, April, May and now August and, as you imply, we won’t be far off serious questions being asked.

It’ll be a sad indictment IF we only hold on to a manager and his staff because ‘we can’t afford the compo’, but David Clowes is said to be worth about £250m and the question may become, how long can DCFC continue not to look elsewhere before the fans start voting with their feet?
55,000 for the first two home league L1 matches of the season, when many fans are still on holiday, is quite an achievement. Suffice it to say that many of last night’s initial 25k were beating the traffic long before last night’s final whistle.

Mel is worth more than twice that and still put us into Admin, the wealth of the owner isn't all that matters. I doubt Clowes will be careless with his fortune. He seemed a reluctant owner and stepped in when no one else would. Personally think he will be owner for a short time and will look to sell once the club are back in the championship and stable.

[swaledale]

Mel is worth more than twice that and still put us into Admin, the wealth of the owner isn't all that matters. I doubt Clowes will be careless with his fortune. He seemed a reluctant owner and stepped in when no one else would. Personally think he will be owner for a short time and will look to sell once the club are back in the championship and stable.

The owners wealth is immaterial, Derby have a business plan and budget being monitored by the EFL, Clowes can't simply bung ina few million willy nilly, thats the point of the fair play rules! Mel, with all his wealth had to sell the ground to a company set up by himself in order to get round them and look how that finished!

rA you have a very simplistic view of how football finances work. We might not only hold onto the current coaching staff due to the cost of the compensation, but it will be a factor in the thinking, it has to be on a tight budget.

Ah yes, those fans, who whenever matters aren't going well on the football field, throw their toys out of the pram!! I'm sure there is a point at which the loss of revenue might be an issue, but its discretionary income, the ST income is banked and we are probably talking a fair few games before the cost of sacking the coach and his staff is less than projected income.

But the main reason, will be Clowes and the Board have a strategy, rebuild and stability which they will stick with despite the fickle clamour from fans, unless results are so dire that Derby's status in this league is threatened.

Managers need time in the best of circumstances, good owners don't indulge in knee jerk reactions from fans but on the basis of whether and to what extent their objectives and expectations are being met.

If Derby are bottom third by December, there may well be a decision to be made, if we are in the top third, then not so much.

I expect Clowes to look for a partner at some stage, whether he remains involved depends how much he enjoys being the owner.

What he is not going to do is put his own personal financial situation at risk and why should he?

[SithHappens]

The owners wealth is immaterial, Derby have a business plan and budget being monitored by the EFL, Clowes can't simply bung ina few million willy nilly, thats the point of the fair play rules! Mel, with all his wealth had to sell the ground to a company set up by himself in order to get round them and look how that finished!

rA you have a very simplistic view of how football finances work. We might not only hold onto the current coaching staff due to the cost of the compensation, but it will be a factor in the thinking, it has to be on a tight budget.

Ah yes, those fans, who whenever matters aren't going well on the football field, throw their toys out of the pram!! I'm sure there is a point at which the loss of revenue might be an issue, but its discretionary income, the ST income is banked and we are probably talking a fair few games before the cost of sacking the coach and his staff is less than projected income.

But the main reason, will be Clowes and the Board have a strategy, rebuild and stability which they will stick with despite the fickle clamour from fans, unless results are so dire that Derby's status in this league is threatened.

Managers need time in the best of circumstances, good owners don't indulge in knee jerk reactions from fans but on the basis of whether and to what extent their objectives and expectations are being met.

If Derby are bottom third by December, there may well be a decision to be made, if we are in the top third, then not so much.

I expect Clowes to look for a partner at some stage, whether he remains involved depends how much he enjoys being the owner.

What he is not going to do is put his own personal financial situation at risk and why should he?

Agree totally

[Geoff Parkstone]

Yep

[Geoff Parkstone]

But as a Marxist Leninist advocate of the redistribution of wealth, rA might believe redistributing Clowrs personal wealth to please the many (ie the fans) is politically expedient??

[ramAnag]

The owners wealth is immaterial, Derby have a business plan and budget being monitored by the EFL, Clowes can't simply bung ina few million willy nilly, thats the point of the fair play rules! Mel, with all his wealth had to sell the ground to a company set up by himself in order to get round them and look how that finished!

rA you have a very simplistic view of how football finances work. We might not only hold onto the current coaching staff due to the cost of the compensation, but it will be a factor in the thinking, it has to be on a tight budget.

Ah yes, those fans, who whenever matters aren't going well on the football field, throw their toys out of the pram!! I'm sure there is a point at which the loss of revenue might be an issue, but its discretionary income, the ST income is banked and we are probably talking a fair few games before the cost of sacking the coach and his staff is less than projected income.

But the main reason, will be Clowes and the Board have a strategy, rebuild and stability which they will stick with despite the fickle clamour from fans, unless results are so dire that Derby's status in this league is threatened.

Managers need time in the best of circumstances, good owners don't indulge in knee jerk reactions from fans but on the basis of whether and to what extent their objectives and expectations are being met.

If Derby are bottom third by December, there may well be a decision to be made, if we are in the top third, then not so much.

I expect Clowes to look for a partner at some stage, whether he remains involved depends how much he enjoys being the owner.

What he is not going to do is put his own personal financial situation at risk and why should he?

I’ll accept that my knowledge of ‘how football finances work’ is far from complete, Swale...but it’s not ‘simplistic’.

We’re not really saying anything very different.
All I’ve suggested is that, IF results under Warne don’t improve, then Clowes is wealthy enough to say ‘enough is enough’ and draw a line under things in the best interest of the club he clearly loves.
You have agreed to the extent that you’ve put an additional time frame on it and said ‘if Derby are bottom third by December there may well be a decision to be made’. I didn’t provide a time factor...but I agree.

At the moment we’re in the position of having taken just 18 of the last 48 points on offer. That’s pretty dreadful by any standards. Some will say it wasn’t HIS team, but that’s virtually always the case with any manager who joins during, rather than prior to, the season. Others will say, the new signings need to get to know one another, which is of course true but as yet there has been no improvement...while others, unrealistically imo, already just want him gone.

So yes...managers do need time, owners seldom benefit from making knee jerk reactions and fans can be fickle...although 55,000 for our opening two matches would suggest not that fickle...but I have never suggested that DC should put his own ‘personal financial situation’ at risk. What I’ve said is that he has sufficient resources to be able to get rid of an underachieving manager IF that’s what it comes to...it’s obviously not that ‘simplistic’ because you’ve agreed...with the additional provisos that we may have to wait until either December or a time when ‘Derby’s status in this league is threatened’. Not wishing to be ‘simplistic’ but don’t you think that, by the time of that second scenario, it might just be too late?

[swaledale]

I’ll accept that my knowledge of ‘how football finances work’ is far from complete, Swale...but it’s not ‘simplistic’.

We’re not really saying anything very different.
All I’ve suggested is that, IF results under Warne don’t improve, then Clowes is wealthy enough to say ‘enough is enough’ and draw a line under things in the best interest of the club he clearly loves.
You have agreed to the extent that you’ve put an additional time frame on it and said ‘if Derby are bottom third by December there may well be a decision to be made’. I didn’t provide a time factor...but I agree.

At the moment we’re in the position of having taken just 18 of the last 48 points on offer. That’s pretty dreadful by any standards. Some will say it wasn’t HIS team, but that’s virtually always the case with any manager who joins during, rather than prior to, the season. Others will say, the new signings need to get to know one another, which is of course true but as yet there has been no improvement...while others, unrealistically imo, already just want him gone.

So yes...managers do need time, owners seldom benefit from making knee jerk reactions and fans can be fickle...although 55,000 for our opening two matches would suggest not that fickle...but I have never suggested that DC should put his own ‘personal financial situation’ at risk. What I’ve said is that he has sufficient resources to be able to get rid of an underachieving manager IF that’s what it comes to...it’s obviously not that ‘simplistic’ because you’ve agreed...with the additional provisos that we may have to wait until either December or a time when ‘Derby’s status in this league is threatened’. Not wishing to be ‘simplistic’ but don’t you think that, by the time of that second scenario, it might just be too late?

You have missed the crucial point, which is whatever Clowes personal wealth, its not relevant as to whether he sacks the manager, because that will come out of the clubs overall budget, he won't and actually cannot simply bung in a million or thereabouts to pay Warne and his staff off.

So your assertion that Clowes has enough resources to be able to get rid of an underachieving manager maybe true in fact, but cannot happen under the financial fair play rules. Any compensation payment would come out of the existing budget, a million or a few hundred thousand spent on compensation would basically mean that much less in the overall budget for the rest of the season.

Too late? What if Derby are in the bottom third of the league? I'm not suggesting no action if Derby don't win another game until December, then the hand might be forced. Well, lets put it this way, Forest kept the faith with Cooper last season when all looked lost, it worked out for them, why shouldn't it work out for Derby?

I don't think we are saying the same thing, your starting to imply the club should be thinking about Warne's future now, 3 games in and suggested that would be the case even if we were mid table. I'm not and can only see such a scenario happening if results don't improve and we sink towards the bottom of the league. I gave two reasons.

1. Sacking Warne and his backroom staff would be expensive
2. Clowes and the Board will be prepared to give Warne the chance to turn things around.

Obviously if he doesn't manage that and matters don't improve then there will be a decision to be made, when or if that is deemed necessary depends entirely on results

[Andy_Faber]

We might all be having a moan, and if PW was on 50k a year he’d be gone with a few more bad results, but he isn’t and we HAVE to avoid the errors of the past so IMO we are stuck with him though thick or thin. One thing that’s pissing me off though is criticism, however light, of mr Clowes, without whom we would bitching about stuff on the Mickleover Sports message board. In Clowes I still very much trust

[MadAmster]

Indeed. Our hands are tied by the business plan and next season's budget won't see us paying out money we don't have. The days of £6M for Bradley Johnson, for example, are well behind us now.

[ramAnag]

You have missed the crucial point, which is whatever Clowes personal wealth, its not relevant as to whether he sacks the manager, because that will come out of the clubs overall budget, he won't and actually cannot simply bung in a million or thereabouts to pay Warne and his staff off.

So your assertion that Clowes has enough resources to be able to get rid of an underachieving manager maybe true in fact, but cannot happen under the financial fair play rules. Any compensation payment would come out of the existing budget, a million or a few hundred thousand spent on compensation would basically mean that much less in the overall budget for the rest of the season.

Too late? What if Derby are in the bottom third of the league? I'm not suggesting no action if Derby don't win another game until December, then the hand might be forced. Well, lets put it this way, Forest kept the faith with Cooper last season when all looked lost, it worked out for them, why shouldn't it work out for Derby?

I don't think we are saying the same thing, your starting to imply the club should be thinking about Warne's future now, 3 games in and suggested that would be the case even if we were mid table. I'm not and can only see such a scenario happening if results don't improve and we sink towards the bottom of the league. I gave two reasons.

1. Sacking Warne and his backroom staff would be expensive
2. Clowes and the Board will be prepared to give Warne the chance to turn things around.

Obviously if he doesn't manage that and matters don't improve then there will be a decision to be made, when or if that is deemed necessary depends entirely on results

Sorry Swale but there seems to be some confusion.

I understand completely that, in your words, ‘a million or a few hundred thousand spent on compensation would basically mean that much less in the overall budget for the rest of the season’.

What I’m saying is that if things continue as they are, and I’m not talking first 3 or 4 matches of the season...I’m talking the last four consecutive (football) months...then Mr. Clowes may have to bite the bullet and think again.

What you’re saying is that, again in your own words, you ‘can only see such a scenario happening if results don’t improve and we sink towards the bottom of the league.’

Those are your exact words. The difference is minuscule and you actually accept my suggestion that, if things don’t improve or get even worse then, again in your exact words, ‘the hand may be forced’ and ‘there will be a decision to be made’.

The rest is just frankly a bit of a ramble. ‘Sacking Warne and his backroom staff would be expensive’ and what will be ‘deemed necessary depends entirely on results’ is simply stating the obvious, and as regards your comparison with Cooper a couple of seasons ago...it’d be lovely if it happens, but such turnarounds are rare and if you’re wondering ‘why shouldn’t it work out for Derby’ then perhaps, I wouldn’t know, you haven’t seen much of them recently.

I’ve seen them three times this season...for half an hour, against Stoke, we looked excellent. Against Wigan doubts began to surface. I didn’t go to the Blackpool match, but the Oxford game was as bad as it gets (hopefully)...we were out fought, out played and out managed with a team that looked rudderless, disorganised and demoralised long before the end. You can make excuses if it’s just the opening games of the season scenario, but this comes on top of three very disappointing months at the close of last season so, while I completely share AF’s respect for and belief in DC, my trust in Warne is beginning to wane. I very much hope the turn around starts on Saturday against Fleetwood but, in what as you rightly describe as a results driven business, on the evidence to date I have my doubts.