Matchday Thread: Bolton v Derby

[swaledale]

One of those days...just about everyone we’ve been linked with in recent weeks seemed to score while one of those we did sign managed it too...at the wrong end!
With injuries to Rooney and, possibly, Bradley we probably should be grateful for next week’s postponement in this ‘one step forward one step backwards’ stuttering start to the season.
Already concerned about our defensive abilities/formation...long term absences is the last thing we want.

Where would we be without your "concern" eh rA?

Based on what I saw yesterday, it was finely balanced match until Wildsmith was sent off, was it a sending off? I'm getting confused by these rules, and it certainly changed the game and I'd argue spoilt it as spectacle.

Their equaliser was a fluke, we are not getting the rub of the green at the moment, generally these things even themselves out over a season and we are still in touch so as the squad gets used to the tactics and each other, I think we will be top 3 this season.

Things could be worse, we could be Newcastle, backed by overseas wealth, spent millions and having lost all 3 games in the prem!!

[ramAnag]

Where would we be without your "concern" eh rA?

Based on what I saw yesterday, it was finely balanced match until Wildsmith was sent off, was it a sending off? I'm getting confused by these rules, and it certainly changed the game and I'd argue spoilt it as spectacle.

Their equaliser was a fluke, we are not getting the rub of the green at the moment, generally these things even themselves out over a season and we are still in touch so as the squad gets used to the tactics and each other, I think we will be top 3 this season.

Things could be worse, we could be Newcastle, backed by overseas wealth, spent millions and having lost all 3 games in the prem!!

Well I’m glad you take such consolation in us not being Newcastle, Swale...but yes, our defence is an area of concern.
We’ve conceded as many goals as bottom club Cheltenham (admittedly they’ve yet to score!).
That’s not great...more importantly I suspect it’s worse than this time last year and seeing as we’ve retained most of last season’s defensive personnel it does raise ‘concerns’ about formation and selection.

[swaledale]

Well I’m glad you take such consolation in us not being Newcastle, Swale...but yes, our defence is an area of concern.
We’ve conceded as many goals as bottom club Cheltenham (admittedly they’ve yet to score!).
That’s not great...more importantly I suspect it’s worse than this time last year and seeing as we’ve retained most of last season’s defensive personnel it does raise ‘concerns’ about formation and selection.

We have a new set of defensive personnel with "some" from last year retained, though some of those weren't regular performers i.e. Rooney.

How is it more important that our defensive record is worse than this time last year? Its irrelevant, unless your intent on your crusade to prove your assertion that Rosenior was better than Warne? Its a new season, different players, different team, different set up, it bears no relation to last year, all that matter is that we get enough pts to finish top 6 or above. Didn't The owls ahve a record pts total last year but still finish 3rd?

Yesterday we lost Rooney to injury, Cashin was left out due to unwelcome last minute attention by Brighton, 2 of the right wing backs brought in are missing through injury. Sonny Bradley who on paper should be a good defender is having a terrible run of form and is currently error prone, Wildsmith got sent off and their winning goal was a wicked deflection.

Yes we have shipped a few goals, but at least 4 of those can be put down to unusual errors/mistakes, it happens, especially in a team where the central defenders haven't played together much. I'm not sure there is any pattern as yet but your pessimism is duly noted.

[ramAnag]

We have a new set of defensive personnel with "some" from last year retained, though some of those weren't regular performers i.e. Rooney.

How is it more important that our defensive record is worse than this time last year? Its irrelevant, unless your intent on your crusade to prove your assertion that Rosenior was better than Warne? Its a new season, different players, different team, different set up, it bears no relation to last year, all that matter is that we get enough pts to finish top 6 or above. Didn't The owls ahve a record pts total last year but still finish 3rd?

Yesterday we lost Rooney to injury, Cashin was left out due to unwelcome last minute attention by Brighton, 2 of the right wing backs brought in are missing through injury. Sonny Bradley who on paper should be a good defender is having a terrible run of form and is currently error prone, Wildsmith got sent off and their winning goal was a wicked deflection.

Yes we have shipped a few goals, but at least 4 of those can be put down to unusual errors/mistakes, it happens, especially in a team where the central defenders haven't played together much. I'm not sure there is any pattern as yet but your pessimism is duly noted.

You can make me out to be ‘concerned’, ‘pessimistic’ or on a ‘crusade’ if you think it helps. None of it’s true other than an element of ‘concern’ which I’d imagine most Derby fans share. The rest is in your head. All I’m wondering is whether our less effective defensive displays at this stage of the season are the result of the change in formation or personnel.

[Andy_Faber]

You can make me out to be ‘concerned’, ‘pessimistic’ or on a ‘crusade’ if you think it helps. None of it’s true other than an element of ‘concern’ which I’d imagine most Derby fans share. The rest is in your head. All I’m wondering is whether our less effective defensive displays at this stage of the season are the result of the change in formation or personnel.

It may be semantics but 'disappointed' and 'frustrated' fit my mood. This time last year I was overjoyed that firstly we had a club and secondly the team that had been thrown together had some sort of cohesion, reflected in some 'ok' displays and some 'ok' results. We also has a manager it was easy to like albeit his earnest communication hadn't been tested in much on-field adversity. I didn't especially like the ponderous method of building up attacks but that aside I was somewhere between satisfied and elated with our situation. The disappointment and frustration arises because currently the underlying displays (forgetting the results) are worse (IMO significantly worse) in terms of both team cohesion and individual performance than last year, and the manager doesn't seem to be as bothered about it as the typical Rams fan. My 'concern' medium/long term is that PW was recruited based on a CV built on him having 'struck lucky' with his two promotions. I recall (not on here, on fb) a number of rotherham fans alluding to the fact that he was a bit clueless in turning a losing record round, based on Rotherham's two relegations and now reinforced by Derby's late season nosedive. IMO the jury is still out on his ability to do the biz and I'll happily eat humble pie on his ability if things come good (although I doubt I'll ever warm to him)

[swaledale]

It may be semantics but 'disappointed' and 'frustrated' fit my mood. This time last year I was overjoyed that firstly we had a club and secondly the team that had been thrown together had some sort of cohesion, reflected in some 'ok' displays and some 'ok' results. We also has a manager it was easy to like albeit his earnest communication hadn't been tested in much on-field adversity. I didn't especially like the ponderous method of building up attacks but that aside I was somewhere between satisfied and elated with our situation. The disappointment and frustration arises because currently the underlying displays (forgetting the results) are worse (IMO significantly worse) in terms of both team cohesion and individual performance than last year, and the manager doesn't seem to be as bothered about it as the typical Rams fan. My 'concern' medium/long term is that PW was recruited based on a CV built on him having 'struck lucky' with his two promotions. I recall (not on here, on fb) a number of rotherham fans alluding to the fact that he was a bit clueless in turning a losing record round, based on Rotherham's two relegations and now reinforced by Derby's late season nosedive. IMO the jury is still out on his ability to do the biz and I'll happily eat humble pie on his ability if things come good (although I doubt I'll ever warm to him)

Thats a reasonable judgement, though I'd say its stretching it a bit to say he struck lucky, with two promotions, one maybe, but getting out of this league isn't easy, but staying in the championship isn't either as much bigger clubs than Rotherham such as Sheff Wed have shown. On the face of it, his recruitment as a manager with experience of managing at this level and of getting promotion was sound, as against taking a gamble with a "rookie" manager. However, nothing is guaranteed in football and even the based laid plans can misfire, we shall see.

Personally I don't care if the manager/head coach has the personality of a slug, as long as he does the job he is employed to do. At the moment, its difficult to judge whether he can do that, but I'd say there were promising signs.

Its true the team hasn't yet shown its true potential, but given the changes and injuries thats not surprising.

However, given football fans are not renown for being realistic in their assessment of how their team is doing and have very short memories it is perhaps apposite to take a step back and gvie the guy time.

[swaledale]

You can make me out to be ‘concerned’, ‘pessimistic’ or on a ‘crusade’ if you think it helps. None of it’s true other than an element of ‘concern’ which I’d imagine most Derby fans share. The rest is in your head. All I’m wondering is whether our less effective defensive displays at this stage of the season are the result of the change in formation or personnel.

its the way you phrase your concerns rA, which indicates its in your head rather than mine, I am after all only reading what you post. I mean nowhere in your hand wringing did you add context to Saturdays defeat, such as the unfortunate injury to Rooney, the reason why Cashin wasn't picked, Wildsmith's red card which I thought was wrong, though admittedly only from what I saw on the TV, but the club appealing seems to support that or the unfortunate deflection which gave them a winning goal.

Yes its frustrating, but am I concerned? No, but then maybe I have a more realistic expectation as to what may be achieved this season, having seen the likes of Ipswich and Sunderland struggle in League 1 without the financial issues Derby have had to contend with.

[ramAnag]

its the way you phrase your concerns rA, which indicates its in your head rather than mine, I am after all only reading what you post. I mean nowhere in your hand wringing did you add context to Saturdays defeat, such as the unfortunate injury to Rooney, the reason why Cashin wasn't picked, Wildsmith's red card which I thought was wrong, though admittedly only from what I saw on the TV, but the club appealing seems to support that or the unfortunate deflection which gave them a winning goal.

Yes its frustrating, but am I concerned? No, but then maybe I have a more realistic expectation as to what may be achieved this season, having seen the likes of Ipswich and Sunderland struggle in League 1 without the financial issues Derby have had to contend with.

I’m sorry if the way I ‘phrase my concerns’ offends you, Swale, but ‘handwringing pessimism’? Really? I don’t think so.

This is, first and foremost, a DCFC football forum and, for the sake of perspective, it seems reasonable to make the following points and ask specific questions.
Last season’s relative ‘success’ was built on two things...McGoldrick’s goals and having, I think, the fourth best defence in the league, better than the eventual Champions if memory serves.
The former has obviously gone but the personnel from that defence - Wildsmith, Smith, Forsyth, Cashin and Sibley (when fit) - largely remain, albeit deployed in different positions and a different formation.
For some reason our defensive performances this season appear much less effective and I’m just asking if that’s down to formation or something else? I’d even be interested in your response which would make a pleasant change from you going on about Ipswich and Sunderland and making me out to be some sort of ‘handwringing’ doom monger.

For the record...I have never suggested Rosenior was better than Warne...have never implied that we’re heading for relegation and I remain optimistic about our long term future. I do however share the disappointment of others on here at the inconsistency we have shown, not just at the beginning of this season, but over the last five consecutive (footballing) months.

[Andy_Faber]

I’m sorry if the way I ‘phrase my concerns’ offends you, Swale, but ‘handwringing pessimism’? Really? I don’t think so.

This is, first and foremost, a DCFC football forum and, for the sake of perspective, it seems reasonable to make the following points and ask specific questions.
Last season’s relative ‘success’ was built on two things...McGoldrick’s goals and having, I think, the fourth best defence in the league, better than the eventual Champions if memory serves.
The former has obviously gone but the personnel from that defence - Wildsmith, Smith, Forsyth, Cashin and Sibley (when fit) - largely remain, albeit deployed in different positions and a different formation.
For some reason our defensive performances this season appear much less effective and I’m just asking if that’s down to formation or something else? I’d even be interested in your response which would make a pleasant change from you going on about Ipswich and Sunderland and making me out to be some sort of ‘handwringing’ doom monger.

For the record...I have never suggested Rosenior was better than Warne...have never implied that we’re heading for relegation and I remain optimistic about our long term future. I do however share the disappointment of others on here at the inconsistency we have shown, not just at the beginning of this season, but over the last five consecutive (footballing) months.

I know I'm not Swale but I like to have my say, continuing to speak from the 'disappointed' POV

I'm one of those boring 'build from the back' fellahs and based on performances so far, Wildsmith/Smith/Cashin/Forsyth/AN Other would be my defence, weak link being left back because we have no-one who is a patch on last year's incumbent Roberts. I doubt PW will revert to that selection purely out of pride, he's brought in a number of so-so defenders and may, even subconsciously, feel that he needs to justify their recruitment. I hope not, I want him to pick the best team

I DO think, based on the past year, that LR is/will be a better manager than PW, especially as he seems to have eased off slightly on his tippy tappy playing out style with Hull (I am told, I haven't seen them)

[swaledale]

I’m sorry if the way I ‘phrase my concerns’ offends you, Swale, but ‘handwringing pessimism’? Really? I don’t think so.

This is, first and foremost, a DCFC football forum and, for the sake of perspective, it seems reasonable to make the following points and ask specific questions.
Last season’s relative ‘success’ was built on two things...McGoldrick’s goals and having, I think, the fourth best defence in the league, better than the eventual Champions if memory serves.
The former has obviously gone but the personnel from that defence - Wildsmith, Smith, Forsyth, Cashin and Sibley (when fit) - largely remain, albeit deployed in different positions and a different formation.
For some reason our defensive performances this season appear much less effective and I’m just asking if that’s down to formation or something else? I’d even be interested in your response which would make a pleasant change from you going on about Ipswich and Sunderland and making me out to be some sort of ‘handwringing’ doom monger.

For the record...I have never suggested Rosenior was better than Warne...have never implied that we’re heading for relegation and I remain optimistic about our long term future. I do however share the disappointment of others on here at the inconsistency we have shown, not just at the beginning of this season, but over the last five consecutive (footballing) months.

If after a defeat you immediately post a down beat critique of the game and the team, with no reference to the two key, factors that influenced the result, including questioning the defence, the formation and a comparison with the situation last season thats hand wringing in most people's assessments I'd say.

Its precisely because its a football forum that we are having this debate, your stating the bleeding obvious there rA! Or once you have posted your opinion, do you not expect to get a response and is any response supposed to agree with your sentiments?

Not really sure what the relevance of either the last 5 footballing months has with where we are today. Its a new season, and we have new team members many factors affect games, not least injuries, refs decisions, player form etc. etc.

You may not have suggested outright that Rosenior was better than Warne, but you certainly implied that the evidence suggested we'd have been better off sticking with the former and its a theme that reoccurs, as in comparing where we are now to this time last season.

Smith and Sibley the defence? last time I looked they were midfielders, but I guess I'm focussing on details here, as in Cashin wasn't playing either for reasons which were explained.

So looking at the facts, we had a changed defence due to injuries and the Cashin situation, within 15 mins, Rooney was injured, forcing a change and then Wildsmith was sent off, wrongly I thought at the time (see previous post) which has since been confirmed as Derby have won their appeal against the red card and we lost 1-2 away to one of the leagues stronger sides and the winning goal was an unfortunate deflection.

On that basis your questioning our defensive strength, the formation and Warne's tactics?

Had none of those factors been in play and we had lost 0-2 or worse, I'd see your point, as it is I don't think you have one. For the Bolton game at least Warne has plenty of mitigating factors.

Yes I agree we are more inconsistent since this time last season, but so what? Everything is different, which is why I pointed to Newcastle who having spent millions are having a poor start to their campaign.

The reason I keep mentioning Sunderland and Ipswich is because of how long it took those teams to get out of this division without being subject to EFL financial restrictions. You seem to think Derby should automatically be challenging for promotion and if they aren't its down purely to the manager