Matchday Thread: Bolton v Derby

[ramAnag]

We have a new set of defensive personnel with "some" from last year retained, though some of those weren't regular performers i.e. Rooney.

How is it more important that our defensive record is worse than this time last year? Its irrelevant, unless your intent on your crusade to prove your assertion that Rosenior was better than Warne? Its a new season, different players, different team, different set up, it bears no relation to last year, all that matter is that we get enough pts to finish top 6 or above. Didn't The owls ahve a record pts total last year but still finish 3rd?

Yesterday we lost Rooney to injury, Cashin was left out due to unwelcome last minute attention by Brighton, 2 of the right wing backs brought in are missing through injury. Sonny Bradley who on paper should be a good defender is having a terrible run of form and is currently error prone, Wildsmith got sent off and their winning goal was a wicked deflection.

Yes we have shipped a few goals, but at least 4 of those can be put down to unusual errors/mistakes, it happens, especially in a team where the central defenders haven't played together much. I'm not sure there is any pattern as yet but your pessimism is duly noted.

You can make me out to be ‘concerned’, ‘pessimistic’ or on a ‘crusade’ if you think it helps. None of it’s true other than an element of ‘concern’ which I’d imagine most Derby fans share. The rest is in your head. All I’m wondering is whether our less effective defensive displays at this stage of the season are the result of the change in formation or personnel.

[Andy_Faber]

You can make me out to be ‘concerned’, ‘pessimistic’ or on a ‘crusade’ if you think it helps. None of it’s true other than an element of ‘concern’ which I’d imagine most Derby fans share. The rest is in your head. All I’m wondering is whether our less effective defensive displays at this stage of the season are the result of the change in formation or personnel.

It may be semantics but 'disappointed' and 'frustrated' fit my mood. This time last year I was overjoyed that firstly we had a club and secondly the team that had been thrown together had some sort of cohesion, reflected in some 'ok' displays and some 'ok' results. We also has a manager it was easy to like albeit his earnest communication hadn't been tested in much on-field adversity. I didn't especially like the ponderous method of building up attacks but that aside I was somewhere between satisfied and elated with our situation. The disappointment and frustration arises because currently the underlying displays (forgetting the results) are worse (IMO significantly worse) in terms of both team cohesion and individual performance than last year, and the manager doesn't seem to be as bothered about it as the typical Rams fan. My 'concern' medium/long term is that PW was recruited based on a CV built on him having 'struck lucky' with his two promotions. I recall (not on here, on fb) a number of rotherham fans alluding to the fact that he was a bit clueless in turning a losing record round, based on Rotherham's two relegations and now reinforced by Derby's late season nosedive. IMO the jury is still out on his ability to do the biz and I'll happily eat humble pie on his ability if things come good (although I doubt I'll ever warm to him)

[swaledale]

It may be semantics but 'disappointed' and 'frustrated' fit my mood. This time last year I was overjoyed that firstly we had a club and secondly the team that had been thrown together had some sort of cohesion, reflected in some 'ok' displays and some 'ok' results. We also has a manager it was easy to like albeit his earnest communication hadn't been tested in much on-field adversity. I didn't especially like the ponderous method of building up attacks but that aside I was somewhere between satisfied and elated with our situation. The disappointment and frustration arises because currently the underlying displays (forgetting the results) are worse (IMO significantly worse) in terms of both team cohesion and individual performance than last year, and the manager doesn't seem to be as bothered about it as the typical Rams fan. My 'concern' medium/long term is that PW was recruited based on a CV built on him having 'struck lucky' with his two promotions. I recall (not on here, on fb) a number of rotherham fans alluding to the fact that he was a bit clueless in turning a losing record round, based on Rotherham's two relegations and now reinforced by Derby's late season nosedive. IMO the jury is still out on his ability to do the biz and I'll happily eat humble pie on his ability if things come good (although I doubt I'll ever warm to him)

Thats a reasonable judgement, though I'd say its stretching it a bit to say he struck lucky, with two promotions, one maybe, but getting out of this league isn't easy, but staying in the championship isn't either as much bigger clubs than Rotherham such as Sheff Wed have shown. On the face of it, his recruitment as a manager with experience of managing at this level and of getting promotion was sound, as against taking a gamble with a "rookie" manager. However, nothing is guaranteed in football and even the based laid plans can misfire, we shall see.

Personally I don't care if the manager/head coach has the personality of a slug, as long as he does the job he is employed to do. At the moment, its difficult to judge whether he can do that, but I'd say there were promising signs.

Its true the team hasn't yet shown its true potential, but given the changes and injuries thats not surprising.

However, given football fans are not renown for being realistic in their assessment of how their team is doing and have very short memories it is perhaps apposite to take a step back and gvie the guy time.

[swaledale]

You can make me out to be ‘concerned’, ‘pessimistic’ or on a ‘crusade’ if you think it helps. None of it’s true other than an element of ‘concern’ which I’d imagine most Derby fans share. The rest is in your head. All I’m wondering is whether our less effective defensive displays at this stage of the season are the result of the change in formation or personnel.

its the way you phrase your concerns rA, which indicates its in your head rather than mine, I am after all only reading what you post. I mean nowhere in your hand wringing did you add context to Saturdays defeat, such as the unfortunate injury to Rooney, the reason why Cashin wasn't picked, Wildsmith's red card which I thought was wrong, though admittedly only from what I saw on the TV, but the club appealing seems to support that or the unfortunate deflection which gave them a winning goal.

Yes its frustrating, but am I concerned? No, but then maybe I have a more realistic expectation as to what may be achieved this season, having seen the likes of Ipswich and Sunderland struggle in League 1 without the financial issues Derby have had to contend with.

[ramAnag]

its the way you phrase your concerns rA, which indicates its in your head rather than mine, I am after all only reading what you post. I mean nowhere in your hand wringing did you add context to Saturdays defeat, such as the unfortunate injury to Rooney, the reason why Cashin wasn't picked, Wildsmith's red card which I thought was wrong, though admittedly only from what I saw on the TV, but the club appealing seems to support that or the unfortunate deflection which gave them a winning goal.

Yes its frustrating, but am I concerned? No, but then maybe I have a more realistic expectation as to what may be achieved this season, having seen the likes of Ipswich and Sunderland struggle in League 1 without the financial issues Derby have had to contend with.

I’m sorry if the way I ‘phrase my concerns’ offends you, Swale, but ‘handwringing pessimism’? Really? I don’t think so.

This is, first and foremost, a DCFC football forum and, for the sake of perspective, it seems reasonable to make the following points and ask specific questions.
Last season’s relative ‘success’ was built on two things...McGoldrick’s goals and having, I think, the fourth best defence in the league, better than the eventual Champions if memory serves.
The former has obviously gone but the personnel from that defence - Wildsmith, Smith, Forsyth, Cashin and Sibley (when fit) - largely remain, albeit deployed in different positions and a different formation.
For some reason our defensive performances this season appear much less effective and I’m just asking if that’s down to formation or something else? I’d even be interested in your response which would make a pleasant change from you going on about Ipswich and Sunderland and making me out to be some sort of ‘handwringing’ doom monger.

For the record...I have never suggested Rosenior was better than Warne...have never implied that we’re heading for relegation and I remain optimistic about our long term future. I do however share the disappointment of others on here at the inconsistency we have shown, not just at the beginning of this season, but over the last five consecutive (footballing) months.

[Andy_Faber]

I’m sorry if the way I ‘phrase my concerns’ offends you, Swale, but ‘handwringing pessimism’? Really? I don’t think so.

This is, first and foremost, a DCFC football forum and, for the sake of perspective, it seems reasonable to make the following points and ask specific questions.
Last season’s relative ‘success’ was built on two things...McGoldrick’s goals and having, I think, the fourth best defence in the league, better than the eventual Champions if memory serves.
The former has obviously gone but the personnel from that defence - Wildsmith, Smith, Forsyth, Cashin and Sibley (when fit) - largely remain, albeit deployed in different positions and a different formation.
For some reason our defensive performances this season appear much less effective and I’m just asking if that’s down to formation or something else? I’d even be interested in your response which would make a pleasant change from you going on about Ipswich and Sunderland and making me out to be some sort of ‘handwringing’ doom monger.

For the record...I have never suggested Rosenior was better than Warne...have never implied that we’re heading for relegation and I remain optimistic about our long term future. I do however share the disappointment of others on here at the inconsistency we have shown, not just at the beginning of this season, but over the last five consecutive (footballing) months.

I know I'm not Swale but I like to have my say, continuing to speak from the 'disappointed' POV

I'm one of those boring 'build from the back' fellahs and based on performances so far, Wildsmith/Smith/Cashin/Forsyth/AN Other would be my defence, weak link being left back because we have no-one who is a patch on last year's incumbent Roberts. I doubt PW will revert to that selection purely out of pride, he's brought in a number of so-so defenders and may, even subconsciously, feel that he needs to justify their recruitment. I hope not, I want him to pick the best team

I DO think, based on the past year, that LR is/will be a better manager than PW, especially as he seems to have eased off slightly on his tippy tappy playing out style with Hull (I am told, I haven't seen them)

[ramAnag]

I know I'm not Swale but I like to have my say, continuing to speak from the 'disappointed' POV

I'm one of those boring 'build from the back' fellahs and based on performances so far, Wildsmith/Smith/Cashin/Forsyth/AN Other would be my defence, weak link being left back because we have no-one who is a patch on last year's incumbent Roberts. I doubt PW will revert to that selection purely out of pride, he's brought in a number of so-so defenders and may, even subconsciously, feel that he needs to justify their recruitment. I hope not, I want him to pick the best team

I DO think, based on the past year, that LR is/will be a better manager than PW, especially as he seems to have eased off slightly on his tippy tappy playing out style with Hull (I am told, I haven't seen them)

Sorry, AF...wasn’t only suggesting Swale should answer.

For what it’s worth, like you I hope to be proved wrong...but, on the evidence of the last five plus months I doubt there’s any likelihood at all of us going down but equally, on the evidence of recent performances, there’s little likelihood of us going up either. It’s an odd league...just look at Port Vale...and things may well come right but, as even Swale concedes, if we’re struggling, or still failing to make progress, by December then Mr. Clowes may have a tough decision to make.

In the meantime...maybe a back four of Smith, Nelson, Cashin and Forsyth could be tried...it certainly seems to work better imo.
Think the captaincy needs looking at again too because Hourihane looks anything but inspirational to me.

[Andy_Faber]

Sorry, AF...wasn’t only suggesting Swale should answer.

For what it’s worth, like you I hope to be proved wrong...but, on the evidence of the last five plus months I doubt there’s any likelihood at all of us going down but equally, on the evidence of recent performances, there’s little likelihood of us going up either. It’s an odd league...just look at Port Vale...and things may well come right but, as even Swale concedes, if we’re struggling, or still failing to make progress, by December then Mr. Clowes may have a tough decision to make.

In the meantime...maybe a back four of Smith, Nelson, Cashin and Forsyth could be tried...it certainly seems to work better imo.
Think the captaincy needs looking at again too because Hourihane looks anything but inspirational to me.

I agree and regretably nPW's laissez faire attitude on that has cost him the ability to make a change, he'd be overruling the players he trusted to make the right call in the first place. Problem is there doesn't appear to be ANY leaders

[swaledale]

I know I'm not Swale but I like to have my say, continuing to speak from the 'disappointed' POV

I'm one of those boring 'build from the back' fellahs and based on performances so far, Wildsmith/Smith/Cashin/Forsyth/AN Other would be my defence, weak link being left back because we have no-one who is a patch on last year's incumbent Roberts. I doubt PW will revert to that selection purely out of pride, he's brought in a number of so-so defenders and may, even subconsciously, feel that he needs to justify their recruitment. I hope not, I want him to pick the best team

I DO think, based on the past year, that LR is/will be a better manager than PW, especially as he seems to have eased off slightly on his tippy tappy playing out style with Hull (I am told, I haven't seen them)

Its a football Forum, it isn't me against rA, I'm merely commenting on his posts, everybody has an opinion and able to share it should they wish.

I think your suggesting that the formation should be 4-4-2 or 4-3-2-1 rather than Warne's favoured 3-5-2? Though I'd point out that Smith is a midfielder and not a full back.

I seem to remember that last season, Roberts was pilloried by many for his defensive duties, though excellent going forward, Elder fills that gap, but has yet to settle into the side, theres time.

Why Warne would not revert to 4-4-2, or 4-3-2-1 due to pride? I doubt the guy is that daft, but if he has a tactical plan which he has worked on with his defenders then to abandon it on the basis of a few defeats and especially the last game where circumstances combined to rob Derby of at least a pt, would seem strange at this juncture.

On current evidence there is certainly a question mark against Bradley, surprising seen as he played in a team that won the championship play offs last season, but Nelson seems a good recruit to me, I mean he has made the odd mistake, but then who hasn't in the defence so far this season? You say he has recruited so-so defenders yet looking at them they seem to be of a standard needed and its hard to judge when a side is disrupted through injury.

Warne surely picks the team he feels has the best chance of winning? Though again circumstances can and have prevented him from fielding the players he might want to and he has dropped Elder when he hasn't performed so no evidence to date that either consciously or subconsciously he is picking the plyers he has recruited.

Hopefully the weekend off gives him time to work with the players and integrate the new additions, but lets not forget we had 2 good wins prior to the Bolton game and didn't fall apart after the red card that shouldn't have been in that game so whilst we aren't firing on all cylinders yet by any means, talk of a defensive crisis is a little wide of the mark.

Whether Rosenior turns out to be a better manager than Warne is a moot point, managing Hull in the championship without the financial restrictions Derby have in League 1 is a different ball game, apples and pears come to mind. But is irrelevant anyway as he isn't Derby's manager now.

Anyhow it all makes for a debate which after all is the point of a football forum.

[Andy_Faber]

Its a football Forum, it isn't me against rA, I'm merely commenting on his posts, everybody has an opinion and able to share it should they wish.

I think your suggesting that the formation should be 4-4-2 or 4-3-2-1 rather than Warne's favoured 3-5-2? Though I'd point out that Smith is a midfielder and not a full back.

I seem to remember that last season, Roberts was pilloried by many for his defensive duties, though excellent going forward, Elder fills that gap, but has yet to settle into the side, theres time.

Why Warne would not revert to 4-4-2, or 4-3-2-1 due to pride? I doubt the guy is that daft, but if he has a tactical plan which he has worked on with his defenders then to abandon it on the basis of a few defeats and especially the last game where circumstances combined to rob Derby of at least a pt, would seem strange at this juncture.

On current evidence there is certainly a question mark against Bradley, surprising seen as he played in a team that won the championship play offs last season, but Nelson seems a good recruit to me, I mean he has made the odd mistake, but then who hasn't in the defence so far this season? You say he has recruited so-so defenders yet looking at them they seem to be of a standard needed and its hard to judge when a side is disrupted through injury.

Warne surely picks the team he feels has the best chance of winning? Though again circumstances can and have prevented him from fielding the players he might want to and he has dropped Elder when he hasn't performed so no evidence to date that either consciously or subconsciously he is picking the plyers he has recruited.

Hopefully the weekend off gives him time to work with the players and integrate the new additions, but lets not forget we had 2 good wins prior to the Bolton game and didn't fall apart after the red card that shouldn't have been in that game so whilst we aren't firing on all cylinders yet by any means, talk of a defensive crisis is a little wide of the mark.

Whether Rosenior turns out to be a better manager than Warne is a moot point, managing Hull in the championship without the financial restrictions Derby have in League 1 is a different ball game, apples and pears come to mind. But is irrelevant anyway as he isn't Derby's manager now.

Anyhow it all makes for a debate which after all is the point of a football forum.

yes its all just debating points

I take your point that Smith is a midfielder by reputation but I'll add three things - he wasn't for most of last year and made a pretty good (not outstanding) job of it, he at this stage of his career to be a better fullback than midfielder, and a change of role is not out of the question for footballers, I'll cite our hero Dave Mackay and our adversary's hero, Kenny Burns, changed from 'the poor man's Bob Latchford' to a regretably Euro Cup winning centre half.

Roberts had his bad moments yes, I still think he was way better than anything we have to replace him (even the dependable Forsyth)

Maybe pride is the wrong word on Warne's formation, dogma may be more appropriate

I'd question the '2 good wins' thing, I was at the Fleetwood game and watched the vid of the Burton game and it felt a bit hit and hope to me.

I hope I'm wrong on all counts, and as I've said, 'disappointed' and 'frustrated' will do for now