O/T:- Palestine / Israel

[OchPie]

I think there are two additional important points the author makes that you appear to have avoided.

The first:

“If, therefore, having committed war crimes somehow deprived a nation of its right to the legitimate use of military force, then the US and Israel, for instance would have to abolish their armies, because of their outstanding record of war crimes.”

Of course the logic may be applied to an organization (such as any Israeli and/or US parties that have presided over war crimes, or the IDF, etc - as I said in a post above ‘however we wish to divide that pie) instead of a ‘nation’.

The second point, in light of your position, is that we are not likewise called upon to condemn the Israeli government wholesale for its war crimes:

“So, why are we so ritualistically asked, urged, compelled to “condemn Hamas”? … The reality is that this is an ideological test of submission, a sort of loyalty oath. We are supposed to take it, again and again and again, to prove that we are in compliance with the double standards of a West that proactively helps Israel commit genocide.”

Perhaps, in congruence with your logic, an argument could be made that if an organization consistently strives in good faith to hold all of its members who perpetrate war crimes to account, only then does the organization retain the right to the legitimate use of force. However, it is clear that Israel hasn’t and doesn’t do this.

I don't think I've avoided them. I think I directly addressed the first, but to repeat: "unless they can show how seriously they take international law here, release all the hostages and show they are bringing those responsible for war crimes to justice - they HAVE lost their right to legitimate resistance".

All fighting includes war crimes. Some do go unpunished by the forces involved. Too many by the IDF go unpunished by Israel. BUT, some are rightly prosecuted, and there is a system set up to do that. Same with the US, the UK, European forces. Hamas doesn't do that. And that's the difference between those armies, and Hamas. Note: Hamas could do this. It just doesn't. And that's a big problem in international law, in terms of their legitimacy as a fighting force.

Could Israel do more? Sure, and the Israeli human rights organisations are very good at documenting the failures. But Israel does take it seriously, even if I'd prefer they did a lot more. For all the actions Israel does take, there are others it does not for humanitarian reasons. Often I detest its answers, but it asks the questions. Hamas doesn't.

As for being called upon to condemn Hamas war crimes and not Israeli war crimes - so what? This feels entirely weak to me. Hamas HAS committed horrific war crimes. They should be horrific for everyone. And that should make the condemnation easy. I can go on to condemn Israel's later, and if someone then cuts off a condemnation of Israeli war crimes, that's a different matter. But condemning Hamas for its brutality should be table stakes for retaining humanity, too. Even if those asking are doing so to make a point.

[Magpies1959]

Heartwarming to see all those proud Palestinians and supporters locking down London Liverpool Street station, maybe they all wanted to catch a train to start their journey back to the place they love. Unsurprisingly no mention of it on the BBC news website.

[keldsyke]

Deport them to where, and what are these ‘values’ you talk about?

Rwanda maybe a good option?... Values = openly supporting groups with terrorist sympathy - oh and those that tore down or defaced statues etc under the BLM rubbish as well, they would be first on the plane.

[countygump]

I dunno. For me free speech and free protest - as long as not directly intimidating, and certainly as long as not glorifying terrorism - IS a key value of the UK.

Absolutely. Whether you agree or disagree with other people's viewpoints, protest and free speech is their right.

[Old_pie]

Absolutely. Whether you agree or disagree with other people's viewpoints, protest and free speech is their right.

Not a word on the BBC website:

Hundreds of pro-Palestine protesters stage sit-in at Liverpool Street station - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SO5nDIMumN8

Seen on Twitter:

[OchPie]

That massive "Jews against genocide" banner must really have terrified people.

[Mapperleypie]

That massive "Jews against genocide" banner must really have terrified people.

I wonder where the people with this banner should have been deported to? Any ideas keldsyke?

[Magpies1959]

Old_pie sad but true, our time is running out. I am sure they will let Och Pie and the rest of the left wingers stay, and still be allowed to live a non muslim lifestyle

[OchPie]

Old_pie sad but true, our time is running out. I am sure they will let Och Pie and the rest of the left wingers stay, and still be allowed to live a non muslim lifestyle

I currently stay in a Muslim majority country. My bacon cheeseburger dinner, washed down with a local beer, was delicious.

More to the point, a fair few younger Notts fans look like the children of the dudes on the left. I'm more than happy to welcome them down the Lane.

[andy6025]

I don't think I've avoided them. I think I directly addressed the first, but to repeat: "unless they can show how seriously they take international law here, release all the hostages and show they are bringing those responsible for war crimes to justice - they HAVE lost their right to legitimate resistance".

All fighting includes war crimes. Some do go unpunished by the forces involved. Too many by the IDF go unpunished by Israel. BUT, some are rightly prosecuted, and there is a system set up to do that. Same with the US, the UK, European forces. Hamas doesn't do that. And that's the difference between those armies, and Hamas. Note: Hamas could do this. It just doesn't. And that's a big problem in international law, in terms of their legitimacy as a fighting force.

Could Israel do more? Sure, and the Israeli human rights organisations are very good at documenting the failures. But Israel does take it seriously, even if I'd prefer they did a lot more. For all the actions Israel does take, there are others it does not for humanitarian reasons. Often I detest its answers, but it asks the questions. Hamas doesn't.

Ah ok, so you’ve taken a softer version of the line that I mentioned last time - that an organization that consistently and in good faith prosecutes it’s own war crimes retains the right to legitimate violence, whereas those that don’t lose the right to legitimate violence. The former may have their war crimes condemned but they, as an organization are not condemned. The latter, we demand the condemnation of the organization as well as the crimes.

And yet you readily admit that Israel has a poor record of prosecuting its own war crimes. And thus you accept a softer version of this. You say, “Too many [war crimes] by the IDF go unpunished by Israel… Could Israel do more? Sure… I'd prefer they did a lot more.”

I think you might be quite surprised to learn how little Israel has investigated or prosecuted its own war crimes. In fact, it’s very difficult to find any IDF soldier sentences for murder that are longer than 2 years imprisonment, and that’s for the very few cases where they do investigate and prosecute. I challenge you to find some. Nor does this take into account long standing *systemic* human rights violations and war crimes.

Just in the recent genocide of Palestinians, there are well founded allegation of these very serious crimes: Collective punishment (article 3 of the Geneva convention), blockade of fuel, water and medicine, forcible transfer of 100s of thousands of people, ethnic cleansing, genocide, incitement to genocide, the use of white phosphorus ammunitions in prohibited circumstances, indiscriminate attacks including but not limited to air strikes against refugee camps, places of worship, camp markets, schools and hospitals, the deliberate targeting and murder of journalists, the murder by execution of surrendered prisoners of war, and the abuse and ***ual humiliation of detainees.

And yet we are to reasonably expect Israel to investigate and prosecute these alleged crimes in good faith? I don’t know anyone that can take such an expectation seriously.

Sorry, but I’m not finding the claim that ‘Israeli sort of sometimes kinda prosecutes its own war crimes but could do better’ to be a consistent position to explain why we ought to demand the wholesale condemnation of Hamas and the removal of its right to legitimate violence, but not apply it likewise to the Israeli government. So far I think the original author is right - such demands are simply an ideological loyalty test designed to manufacture consent for Israel’s genocide of the Palestinian people.