O/T:- Palestine / Israel

[Newish Pie]

So many "well meaning" people want to see a ceasefire. No normal human being can watch the pain and suffering without wishing for a peaceful solution.

But there is not enough news coverage on who the IDF are fighting. Again I will refer to the documentary I cited, made in 2017, when standing near the Gaza border the Israelis were fearful of what was below their feet, and as they observered a Hamas look-out post shots were fired. Are the IDF going into Hospitals fighting nurses and doctors? Who is fighting back, surely someone is fighting back? Why are they there in the first place. Why are the brave freedom fighters lurking in well constructed tunnels within civilian infrastructure? In 2015 even Egypt flooded, with sea water, the Hamas tunnels near their border.

A ceasefire simply gives Hamas time and space to regroup to cause more havoc. Their stated aim is the destruction of Israel. That is the freedom they are fighting for however many Palestinian lives it costs.

I'd agree with most of that. That's the thing - there's a lot more agreement than disagreement on this issue, especially in the UK.

Everyone wants a peaceful solution, pretty much everyone thinks that the way forward is a two-state solution. The only difference is one of emphasis... some people will start with how awful Hamas are, some people will start with how awful the IDF are, but will also acknowledge that the other lot are awful too. It's just that they'll do that second, probably say that they're less awful, and will probably say that the media doesn't focus enough on the side they think are the most awful.

It's easy to focus on the disagreement, but actually, at root, there's agreement that (a) two state solution; (b) much better leadership on both sides for everyone's sake; and (c) for the love of all that's holy can you stop killing and maiming each other.

I guess there's a few people who think that either (a) Israel has no right to exist at all in any form and needs to be destroyed, regardless of the consequences for the people who live there; or (b) Israel is justified in doing whatever it likes, regardless of international law and international norms, that self-defence has no limits or proportion, and regardless of the consequences for ordinary people. I disagree with both.

[Old_pie]

I'd agree with most of that. That's the thing - there's a lot more agreement than disagreement on this issue, especially in the UK.

Everyone wants a peaceful solution, pretty much everyone thinks that the way forward is a two-state solution. The only difference is one of emphasis... some people will start with how awful Hamas are, some people will start with how awful the IDF are, but will also acknowledge that the other lot are awful too. It's just that they'll do that second, probably say that they're less awful, and will probably say that the media doesn't focus enough on the side they think are the most awful.

It's easy to focus on the disagreement, but actually, at root, there's agreement that (a) two state solution; (b) much better leadership on both sides for everyone's sake; and (c) for the love of all that's holy can you stop killing and maiming each other.

I guess there's a few people who think that either (a) Israel has no right to exist at all in any form and needs to be destroyed, regardless of the consequences for the people who live there; or (b) Israel is justified in doing whatever it likes, regardless of international law and international norms, that self-defence has no limits or proportion, and regardless of the consequences for ordinary people. I disagree with both.

I'm not sure where the "agreement" for a two state solution you mention is coming from. And like the "Irish" question (UK/EU and/or/both) there are so many nuances to resolve, especially Jerusalem. Of course we all know the Jews/Hebrews had lived there (when allowed) for ~2,500yrs, and Christians and Philistines (who I think were nomadic not resident). Islam's claim to it arose from interpretations (or even mis-interpretations) of a dream that Muhammed is said to have had. He never actually went there.

Ideally Palestinians and Jews could co-exist in a single state if you took away religion. But their whole outlook seems so alien to each other that it likely would be uncomfortable. And anyway the Jews would just take over because they are more industrious.

[Newish Pie]

I'm not sure where the "agreement" for a two state solution you mention is coming from. And like the "Irish" question (UK/EU and/or/both) there are so many nuances to resolve, especially Jerusalem. Of course we all know the Jews/Hebrews had lived there (when allowed) for ~2,500yrs, and Christians and Philistines (who I think were nomadic not resident). Islam's claim to it arose from interpretations (or even mis-interpretations) of a dream that Muhammed is said to have had. He never actually went there.

Ideally Palestinians and Jews could co-exist in a single state if you took away religion. But their whole outlook seems so alien to each other that it likely would be uncomfortable. And anyway the Jews would just take over because they are more industrious.

I was referring mainly to discussions about the issue in the UK, and making the point that it's less of a divisive issue than some people think. Especially those who seem desperate to believe that anyone with any sympathy for the Palestinian cause is a supporter of Hamas.

I think internationally, the consensus is also that a two-state solution seems like the best option. I agree that it's a long way off at the moment, and it was never going to be easy to arrange even before the recent terrorist atrocities. Obviously, the location of the borders and the terms will be difficult to agree, and negotiations have failed before under far more auspicious circumstances.

[Old_pie]

I was referring mainly to discussions about the issue in the UK, and making the point that it's less of a divisive issue than some people think. Especially those who seem desperate to believe that anyone with any sympathy for the Palestinian cause is a supporter of Hamas.

I think internationally, the consensus is also that a two-state solution seems like the best option. I agree that it's a long way off at the moment, and it was never going to be easy to arrange even before the recent terrorist atrocities. Obviously, the location of the borders and the terms will be difficult to agree, and negotiations have failed before under far more auspicious circumstances.

There has been international consensus for decades. Just a shame the UN can't enforce the solution and force a generation of Jews and Palestinians to co-exist peacefully so that in future they both might see the benefits.

Was that a pig I saw flying over the Lane!!