Matchday thread: Derby v Lincoln

[ramAnag]

Some good results for us today, Stevenage and Oxford both lose.

Objective or negative? Also he has had 1 window free of EFL restrictions not 3 and real football management is not just down to the players one buys, its not FIFA!!! IMO whilst its true the football at best has been "workman like", in the end in this league its league position that counts and as long as he keeps the team in the top 6 he is doing the job he was employed to do!

I still don't understand why you think its a valid criticism that he has built the current team (after 2 transfer windows) around the core of players that were already here? Isn't that what a manager is supposed to do?

Your being a tad harsh in respect of injuries, yes I know the wisdom of buying players or loans that have been injured has been discussed, but then its a judgement call, players do come back after injuries and its one way of getting a better quality player than would otherwise be possible in the circumstances, sometimes that gamble pays off sometimes it doesn't.

Sometimes fans need to remember how Derby arrived at this situation, by spending millions on players who didn't perform. Now we have a few free transfers who have yet to prove themselves over a long period. I mean if players who cost millions can turn out to be duds then what are the chances that some of those acquired on free transfers may also not be as good as expected?

Objective...he’s made 14 signings I think...Springett, White, Ward, Vickers, Nyambe, Waghorn, John-Jules, Fornah, Wilson, Bradley, Washington, Elder, Nelson and Embleton.
I think you forget that’s more than a whole new team, of which only two or three have, imo, proved genuine successes...so far.
Can’t imagine you being so forgiving of any other manager we’ve had having such a ‘success’ rate.
The signs are currently good and I obviously wish him well...but, all I’m saying is...on the evidence above, his transfer dealings need to improve and he needs to bring in players who will make an immediate impact this time.

[swaledale]

Objective...he’s made 14 signings I think...Springett, White, Ward, Vickers, Nyambe, Waghorn, John-Jules, Fornah, Wilson, Bradley, Washington, Elder, Nelson and Embleton.
I think you forget that’s more than a whole new team, of which only two or three have, imo, proved genuine successes...so far.
Can’t imagine you being so forgiving of any other manager we’ve had having such a ‘success’ rate.
The signs are currently good and I obviously wish him well...but, all I’m saying is...on the evidence above, his transfer dealings need to improve and he needs to bring in players who will make an immediate impact this time.

I generally don't rate managers on their "success" rate with signings for a start! I judge them on what happens on the pitch and results, on that score I'm more than happy with Warne and consistently have been. Looking at the stats Derby have the 3rd best goal difference and the 2nd best defensive record, whats not to like?

Well I might be wrong, but I can't recall you slagging off the signings made by other managers for millions in the same way, or obsessing that they were still using the core of the team they took over 16 months ago!!

I just find it odd that Derby are in the play offs are unbeaten in the league for what 6 games? Yet your still harping on about the signings Warne's made. Furthermore, you gloss over the context, 1 transfer window with no EFL restrictions but a reality that the club has to operate within a sustainable business plan, which means it isn't automatically able to pay higher transfer fees or wages for players.

OK so lets look at the transfers (all free by the way) Springett and White were loans presumably the best available at the time, but clearly didn't add much thats loans for you. Ward, injury set him back but has talent and on paper a good signing. Vickers a good back up keeper. Nyambe no issue but was clearly a gamble as no other club had signed him. Waghorn, I was dubious at the time, but would say is a good squad player. John-Jules has the ability and worth a gamble as a loan. Fornah, well glimpses of what he could be. Wilson a good acquisition.
Bradley, a surprise he hasn't clicked but good back up. Washington disappointing, Elder been injured, Nelson excellent, Embleton, a potentially good player coming back from injury and he broke down again, it happens loans are a gamble.

So of the perm signings, Elder, Bradley, Washington are ones have actually not performed as expected.

Of the loans, Springett, White and Embleton I agree haven't worked out but thats loans. I'm not that concerned with loan signings, they are always a gamble, sometimes if like Lampard you can persuade your old club to loan you some top draw young players then its fine, often though your getting players that have potential or players that have suffered set backs


The others have all contributed, some more than others but then thats what happens and has happened when the club has paid millions for players! Plus your ignoring the fact that some existing players like Sibley for instance have performed well below par this season, whereas Collins seems to have improved over last season.

So his transfer dealings need to improve and he needs to bring in players who will make an immediate impact this time?

I fear you may be disappointed! He is still fishing in the same pool. the club cannot afford to be paying over the top on transfer fees or wages, it still has to have an eye on the future, so must balance getting a player in who might increase the chances of promotion, against say 2 players who will add to the depth of the squad. January is not a good window, its either going to be a player that can be tempted (and a club willing to sell) to move mid season or a loan.

On top of that of course is the reality that any player no matter what his pedigree can move clubs and not perform, get injured or take time to gell. I'd settle for a couple of signings that add to the depth of the squad and are able to fit into the team.

[ramAnag]

I generally don't rate managers on their "success" rate with signings for a start! I judge them on what happens on the pitch and results, on that score I'm more than happy with Warne and consistently have been. Looking at the stats Derby have the 3rd best goal difference and the 2nd best defensive record, whats not to like?

Well I might be wrong, but I can't recall you slagging off the signings made by other managers for millions in the same way, or obsessing that they were still using the core of the team they took over 16 months ago!!

I just find it odd that Derby are in the play offs are unbeaten in the league for what 6 games? Yet your still harping on about the signings Warne's made. Furthermore, you gloss over the context, 1 transfer window with no EFL restrictions but a reality that the club has to operate within a sustainable business plan, which means it isn't automatically able to pay higher transfer fees or wages for players.

OK so lets look at the transfers (all free by the way) Springett and White were loans presumably the best available at the time, but clearly didn't add much thats loans for you. Ward, injury set him back but has talent and on paper a good signing. Vickers a good back up keeper. Nyambe no issue but was clearly a gamble as no other club had signed him. Waghorn, I was dubious at the time, but would say is a good squad player. John-Jules has the ability and worth a gamble as a loan. Fornah, well glimpses of what he could be. Wilson a good acquisition.
Bradley, a surprise he hasn't clicked but good back up. Washington disappointing, Elder been injured, Nelson excellent, Embleton, a potentially good player coming back from injury and he broke down again, it happens loans are a gamble.

So of the perm signings, Elder, Bradley, Washington are ones have actually not performed as expected.

Of the loans, Springett, White and Embleton I agree haven't worked out but thats loans. I'm not that concerned with loan signings, they are always a gamble, sometimes if like Lampard you can persuade your old club to loan you some top draw young players then its fine, often though your getting players that have potential or players that have suffered set backs


The others have all contributed, some more than others but then thats what happens and has happened when the club has paid millions for players! Plus your ignoring the fact that some existing players like Sibley for instance have performed well below par this season, whereas Collins seems to have improved over last season.

So his transfer dealings need to improve and he needs to bring in players who will make an immediate impact this time?

I fear you may be disappointed! He is still fishing in the same pool. the club cannot afford to be paying over the top on transfer fees or wages, it still has to have an eye on the future, so must balance getting a player in who might increase the chances of promotion, against say 2 players who will add to the depth of the squad. January is not a good window, its either going to be a player that can be tempted (and a club willing to sell) to move mid season or a loan.

On top of that of course is the reality that any player no matter what his pedigree can move clubs and not perform, get injured or take time to gell. I'd settle for a couple of signings that add to the depth of the squad and are able to fit into the team.

Look Swale, old horse...it’s Christmas Eve and the last thing I want to do is fall out with you...again.

You don’t rate managers by their ‘success rate’ with signings. Really? I think you’ll find most people do...especially owners.

I’m not, and never have been, talking about him using the previous ‘core’ of the side...this latest discussion has been (almost) exclusively about PW’s dealings in the transfer market and I can’t be more objective than to list his 14 signings and judge them...or allow others to do so.
As it happens AF has put on his accountant’s head and attributed value to each signing on my list. I’d only disagree fractionally...one less for Vickers and one more for White but my ultimate conclusion would be the same and that leads me to conclude that PW’s transfer dealings have been disappointing so far.
Whether they’re officially free transfers or not doesn’t really matter...there’s nothing remotely free about them once they’re on the payroll and the fact is that DCFC have paid a lot of money since the summer for players who’ve made little impact.

I’m hoping for an improvement with two, possibly if we’re lucky, three (all subject to any outgoing factors which we don’t have the details of yet) significant and game changing January additions.

I see you’re hoping for much the same, so let’s just agree to share our hopes and differ on some interpretations, cease your apparent obsession with me and enjoy Christmas which will hopefully include a Boxing Day victory at Wigan.

[swaledale]

Look Swale, old horse...it’s Christmas Eve and the last thing I want to do is fall out with you...again.

You don’t rate managers by their ‘success rate’ with signings. Really? I think you’ll find most people do...especially owners.

I’m not, and never have been, talking about him using the previous ‘core’ of the side...this latest discussion has been (almost) exclusively about PW’s dealings in the transfer market and I can’t be more objective than to list his 14 signings and judge them...or allow others to do so.
As it happens AF has put on his accountant’s head and attributed value to each signing on my list. I’d only disagree fractionally...one less for Vickers and one more for White but my ultimate conclusion would be the same and that leads me to conclude that PW’s transfer dealings have been disappointing so far.
Whether they’re officially free transfers or not doesn’t really matter...there’s nothing remotely free about them once they’re on the payroll and the fact is that DCFC have paid a lot of money since the summer for players who’ve made little impact.

I’m hoping for an improvement with two, possibly if we’re lucky, three (all subject to any outgoing factors which we don’t have the details of yet) significant and game changing January additions.

I see you’re hoping for much the same, so let’s just agree to share our hopes and differ on some interpretations, cease your apparent obsession with me and enjoy Christmas which will hopefully include a Boxing Day victory at Wigan.

FFS! Its a forum where you post a view and I post a response, its neither "falling out" with you or being obsessed with you, I happen to disagree with the way you damn Warne with faint praise, you can't criticise the league position, so you make out that "objectively" his signings haven't contributed much.

My experience suggests that fans assessment of players is generally anything but objective! But in the scheme of things, the fact that some players haven't yet been performing as well as one hopes isn't something I'm bothered about. IF we get promotion I certainly won't be saying, ah but he bought 10 players and only 4 actually improved the team!!

So you really think fans and owners judge a manager based on the signings he makes? Really? I mean I know many fans these days seem to think its just a question of getting in a good player and success follows but its obvious thats only one metric on which a manager is judged.

Frankly the way a manager gets the players he inherited to play AND integrates any new additions he brings in is as important. But the key metric is league position and there is no disputing that on that Warne is doing what was expected of him.

Anyway seasons greetings.

[ramAnag]

FFS! Its a forum where you post a view and I post a response, its neither "falling out" with you or being obsessed with you, I happen to disagree with the way you damn Warne with faint praise, you can't criticise the league position, so you make out that "objectively" his signings haven't contributed much.

My experience suggests that fans assessment of players is generally anything but objective! But in the scheme of things, the fact that some players haven't yet been performing as well as one hopes isn't something I'm bothered about. IF we get promotion I certainly won't be saying, ah but he bought 10 players and only 4 actually improved the team!!

So you really think fans and owners judge a manager based on the signings he makes? Really? I mean I know many fans these days seem to think its just a question of getting in a good player and success follows but its obvious thats only one metric on which a manager is judged.

Frankly the way a manager gets the players he inherited to play AND integrates any new additions he brings in is as important. But the key metric is league position and there is no disputing that on that Warne is doing what was expected of him.

Anyway seasons greetings.

1. Okay...am I alone in criticising Warne? No. You just seem rather more likely to vent your spleen on me than others. Doesn’t bother me...just a little repetitive and curious.

2. Of those who’ve offered a view I’d suggest that AF and I have probably seen more of the Rams ‘live’ than most this season. The fact that we share much the same opinion on player performance and signings is maybe telling.

3. Yes I really think fans judge a manager based on the signings (and the sales) he makes. Pretty obvious really...compare Clough and Docherty. Of course it’s not the only thing and I’ve never said it is, but signing the right players with the right attitude so that they gel in a successful way is fundamental from Klopp to the lower leagues. I’m frankly baffled that you’d think otherwise.

4. Yes, of course it’s as important. Where have I ever said otherwise? As you say however, integrating new additions is crucial and I don’t think that has been one of Warne’s pluses so far. So high marks for league position approaching the half way mark...but lower marks for the integration either because more than half his signings a) aren’t good enough b) aren’t the right fit c) are injury prone or d) have proved unlucky.

Oh well. Peace and good will to all men as they say at this time of year...even you and Gunterry who appear to have been my main antagonists of late. Have a good one.

[swaledale]

1. Okay...am I alone in criticising Warne? No. You just seem rather more likely to vent your spleen on me than others. Doesn’t bother me...just a little repetitive and curious.

2. Of those who’ve offered a view I’d suggest that AF and I have probably seen more of the Rams ‘live’ than most this season. The fact that we share much the same opinion on player performance and signings is maybe telling.

3. Yes I really think fans judge a manager based on the signings (and the sales) he makes. Pretty obvious really...compare Clough and Docherty. Of course it’s not the only thing and I’ve never said it is, but signing the right players with the right attitude so that they gel in a successful way is fundamental from Klopp to the lower leagues. I’m frankly baffled that you’d think otherwise.

4. Yes, of course it’s as important. Where have I ever said otherwise? As you say however, integrating new additions is crucial and I don’t think that has been one of Warne’s pluses so far. So high marks for league position approaching the half way mark...but lower marks for the integration either because more than half his signings a) aren’t good enough b) aren’t the right fit c) are injury prone or d) have proved unlucky.

Oh well. Peace and good will to all men as they say at this time of year...even you and Gunterry who appear to have been my main antagonists of late. Have a good one.

1. No, but you have consistently criticised him since last August, where as AF and others have generally made comments after a bad spell of results or a poor game. I've responded where I felt such comments were ill judged, so I'm not "picking on you".

2. Maybe, but whats telling is that despite the football being less than scintillating and some players being consistently slated, the team is now 4th in the league after 6 games unbeaten. Lets not forget the millions spent previously on players and managers in an attempt by the previous owner to get a team playing the "Derby way". At the moment getting out of this division on limited resources is the name of the game.

3. You stated that a manager is judged on the signings he makes, you didn't say its one of the things a manager is judged by! I'm not a mind reader and in any case I'm not in the habit of assuming you mean something that you don't state. There are of course examples of managers who come in make no signings and are judged solely on the team results.

4. I am puzzled how you think Warne has got the team to 4th in the league if he hasn't managed to integrate the new signings with the existing players in the team, I think you mean individual player performances, but its perhaps as well to note that existing players such as Sibley, Bird, Rooney for example have been either injured or not performed well. Wildsmith was having a mare early on as well. Funnily enough players do get injured, have a loss of form etc. etc. On the other hand Nelson, Nyambe, Wilson, and Waghorn have not disappointed though some have had injuries.

There are plenty of examples at any football club of players who have been signed (sometimes for millions) and for whatever reason don't gell, hardly get a game and soon move on, why even the great Pep Guardiola has been known to sign the odd "dud" - theres £40 million Phillips currently looking for a way out at Man City, hardly played since he arrived. Warne IMO opinion has done no worse than most managers to date.

[ramAnag]

1. No, but you have consistently criticised him since last August, where as AF and others have generally made comments after a bad spell of results or a poor game. I've responded where I felt such comments were ill judged, so I'm not "picking on you".

2. Maybe, but whats telling is that despite the football being less than scintillating and some players being consistently slated, the team is now 4th in the league after 6 games unbeaten. Lets not forget the millions spent previously on players and managers in an attempt by the previous owner to get a team playing the "Derby way". At the moment getting out of this division on limited resources is the name of the game.

3. You stated that a manager is judged on the signings he makes, you didn't say its one of the things a manager is judged by! I'm not a mind reader and in any case I'm not in the habit of assuming you mean something that you don't state. There are of course examples of managers who come in make no signings and are judged solely on the team results.

4. I am puzzled how you think Warne has got the team to 4th in the league if he hasn't managed to integrate the new signings with the existing players in the team, I think you mean individual player performances, but its perhaps as well to note that existing players such as Sibley, Bird, Rooney for example have been either injured or not performed well. Wildsmith was having a mare early on as well. Funnily enough players do get injured, have a loss of form etc. etc. On the other hand Nelson, Nyambe, Wilson, and Waghorn have not disappointed though some have had injuries.

There are plenty of examples at any football club of players who have been signed (sometimes for millions) and for whatever reason don't gell, hardly get a game and soon move on, why even the great Pep Guardiola has been known to sign the odd "dud" - theres £40 million Phillips currently looking for a way out at Man City, hardly played since he arrived. Warne IMO opinion has done no worse than most managers to date.

Okay...Christmas Day truce over but let’s stick to logic and reason.

1. I have criticised Warne, especially two or three months ago. I have also praised his achievements when warranted. It’s a case of criticism and praise as and when appropriate for me. As for you ‘picking on’ me...how old are we...six? I said you chose to ‘vent your spleen’ on me even though others have been equally critical at times.

2. What other managers and owners, one in particular, have done in the past is totally irrelevant to Warne’s transfer dealings. Complete red herring.

3. You may not be a mind reader’...but I didn’t realise I had to spell things out quite so literally and simply to you. The context of the discussion was Warne’s performance in the transfer market. Obviously other factors...league position, style of football etc are crucial but central to all that is the ability to spot and acquire additions that fit the budget and will strengthen the playing squad. It’s my opinion that this hasn’t proved to be one of Warne’s strengths over the last 16 months. I’d give him a 4 or possibly 5/10...that’s my opinion...I’ve provided my reasoning elsewhere and things may change in the next window or over the next five months. Certainly Nyambe signing an extension and, as I understand, showing great enthusiasm for DCFC is a huge positive.

4. I don’t really understand how Waghorn, of the players you’ve mentioned, hasn’t ‘disappointed’. This is the Waghorn who you didn’t want us to sign... ‘no thanks not even at L1 level’ were your words I believe...and so far he’s had a bit of a typical Waghorn season. He’s a decent wholehearted player imo...scores goals in ‘clusters’, then goes quiet and misses lengthy periods with injury. Nelson, Nyambe and Wilson we agree on. Vickers too has done nothing wrong, although we haven’t seen enough to be genuinely positive, but 3 or 4 successful signings out of 12/14 leaves much room for improvement in my world and that is all I’ve said.

As regards Pep and Phillips. You make one of my points perfectly. I don’t think anyone would doubt that Kalvin Phillips is an extremely talented footballer...but he’s also staggeringly injury prone. For me that makes him a ‘no go’. I don’t care how good anyone or anything is when they/it are functioning perfectly. If they/it are subject to regular breakdown/unavailability then I wouldn’t buy. Fact is that Pep/Man City can afford to lose out on £40m more than we can afford to lose money on players who’s performances may be measured more in minutes played rather than matches.

I’ve really nothing more to say. It’s become tiresome again and basically we just disagree on the quality of Warne’s signings since he arrived at Derby. You’re obviously satisfied...I’m not...end of. If you want to continue I’d suggest we move to the January window thread because this all has nothing to do with last week against Lincoln.