O/T General Election

[Omegstrat6]

To tell the truth he seems to capture everything I despise about the metropolitan type Labour voters / Party .

The looking down your nose sneering attitude to the working classes who voted for brexit .

He's absolutely no idea about anything outside his middle class London bubble .

He's the voice of the real Labour party who despise the English working class .

Folk like him have done more for Farage , UKIP and Reform than they'll ever know .

Doesn't come across so much in the book, but having watched some of his clips on youtube I can understand your point of view about the way he comes across. The man is certainly intelligent and sharp but there is too often a kind of arrogance about him that I dislike too- a sort of I know I'm brighter than you so I'm going to prove it thing.

Some of those that ring in are, indeed, stupid or bigoted but others are genuinely well meaning with valid points of view that simply disagree with his own.

What he is good at is to dissect the thought processes of some callers and expose the fault lines in their logic and their prejudices. For rather obvious reasons, those with more extreme views are exposed more easily than others and end up making fools of themselves.

Not so sure about the class thing though animal. The days of working class=uneducated/ignorant/thick versus middle classes= educated/ knowledgeable/intelligent for example are surely now pretty much long gone. The working classes may still have less opportunities and be less well educated but ignorance, lack of intelligence and prejudices can affect everyone equally regardless of "class". From what little of his shows that I've seen so far, it certainly isn't just the working class callers he directs his combatativeness at.

Of course, it is always far easier and safer to knock holes in something than it is to stick your head above the parapet and come up with solutions. I'm not saying that valid criticism is not important -just be nicer if he and others like him could suggest better solutions. But then, with few solutions ever pleasing all, that would lead to others criticising them instead wouldn't it.

[animallittle3]

Doesn't come across so much in the book, but having watched some of his clips on youtube I can understand your point of view about the way he comes across. The man is certainly intelligent and sharp but there is too often a kind of arrogance about him that I dislike too- a sort of I know I'm brighter than you so I'm going to prove it thing.

Some of those that ring in are, indeed, stupid or bigoted but others are genuinely well meaning with valid points of view that simply disagree with his own.

What he is good at is to dissect the thought processes of some callers and expose the fault lines in their logic and their prejudices. For rather obvious reasons, those with more extreme views are exposed more easily than others and end up making fools of themselves.

Not so sure about the class thing though animal. The days of working class=uneducated/ignorant/thick versus middle classes= educated/ knowledgeable/intelligent for example are surely now pretty much long gone. The working classes may still have less opportunities and be less well educated but ignorance, lack of intelligence and prejudices can affect everyone equally regardless of "class". From what little of his shows that I've seen so far, it certainly isn't just the working class callers he directs his combatativeness at.

Of course, it is always far easier and safer to knock holes in something than it is to stick your head above the parapet and come up with solutions. I'm not saying that valid criticism is not important -just be nicer if he and others like him could suggest better solutions. But then, with few solutions ever pleasing all, that would lead to others criticising them instead wouldn't it.

I've never heard O'Brien once acknowledge the heavy lifting working class communities in the North and indeed the West Midlands have done in relation to the influx of migrants that have come to this country .

These communities were already under great stress when it came to housing , schools and job prospects before the record amounts of migration we've witnessed .

Not only that but the party who they saw as their representatives in parliament seemingly abandoned them and did very little to change the political consensus from Thatcherism whilst welcoming people from oversees , a political consensus that destroyed these once proud and hardworking communities .

When the EU referendum was announced it was unsurprising that these communities stuck two fingers up to the likes of James O'Brien and his New Labour rhetoric .

[mickd1961]

I've never heard O'Brien once acknowledge the heavy lifting working class communities in the North and indeed the West Midlands have done in relation to the influx of migrants that have come to this country .

These communities were already under great stress when it came to housing , schools and job prospects before the record amounts of migration we've witnessed .

Not only that but the party who they saw as their representatives in parliament seemingly abandoned them and did very little to change the political consensus from Thatcherism whilst welcoming people from oversees , a political consensus that destroyed these once proud and hardworking communities .

When the EU referendum was announced it was unsurprising that these communities stuck two fingers up to the likes of James O'Brien and his New Labour rhetoric .

Talking of communities taking the strain.

Locally to me, a place called Lye that was already a deprived area heaving with the lower end of society in terms of wages and opportunities and heavily Asian in its demographic, suddenly had hundreds of Romanian lowlife parachuted in a decade ago.

It’s caused huge problems and put a deprived area under impossible strain.

I lived around a mile away and of course the criminality and issues started to fan out and so I moved out to the countryside 5 miles away.

I was lucky, I could afford to, most are stuck with what gets foisted upon them.

[baggieal]

Talking of communities taking the strain.

Locally to me, a place called Lye that was already a deprived area heaving with the lower end of society in terms of wages and opportunities and heavily Asian in its demographic, suddenly had hundreds of Romanian lowlife parachuted in a decade ago.

It’s caused huge problems and put a deprived area under impossible strain.

I lived around a mile away and of course the criminality and issues started to fan out and so I moved out to the countryside 5 miles away.

I was lucky, I could afford to, most are stuck with what gets foisted upon them.

That’s why state schools for example in nice areas such as Harrogate are self selecting - mostly all professional parents - no foreigners - no non English speaking kids and no low life. In football terms in deprived areas - it’s like putting a talented academy kid with other kids who have two left feet. Like you say - many are not fortunate to be able to move away!

[animallittle3]

Talking of communities taking the strain.

Locally to me, a place called Lye that was already a deprived area heaving with the lower end of society in terms of wages and opportunities and heavily Asian in its demographic, suddenly had hundreds of Romanian lowlife parachuted in a decade ago.

It’s caused huge problems and put a deprived area under impossible strain.

I lived around a mile away and of course the criminality and issues started to fan out and so I moved out to the countryside 5 miles away.

I was lucky, I could afford to, most are stuck with what gets foisted upon them.

That's correct Mick and that's why in tough economic communities the one thing that kept them going was community spirit and togetherness .

Just about the only vote in their lifetime that actually meant something was offered and they took it and to this day the chattering classes have done nothing but vilify them for it .

This is a classic example .


https://youtu.be/qfxE8QB0_NQ?si=tNOQW05yb5c1PUc6

[WBA123]

I'm about a qaurter of the way through James O'Brien's "How they broke Britain" and if half of what he says is true (and he uses a fair few quotes from the individuals concerned to illustrate his points) then definitely time for a change at this GE.

I don't live in the region and don't listen to his LBC show or watch his podcast, but since starting the book, I have watched a few clips on youtube. Yes, his style is pretty combatative and he certainly has an ego but he also comes across as pretty sharp and well read. So far, I may not agree with everything he says but do think he is right about most things. Certainly his introductory remarks in the book comparing the manner in which the British electorate have been sleepwalking themselves into the current situation over the past decade or so with that of how you might, indeed, "boil a frog" ring true.

What do others make of him if they have read the book or watched/listened to his show?

A very intelligent man who makes valid political points, particularly when it comes to Brexit.

I don't agree with everything he says, but probably the vast majority.

I guess I'm the 'metropolitan London' type that Animal despises

Out of interest, I was in two minds about buying the book. Would you recommend?

[mickd1961]

A very intelligent man who makes valid political points, particularly when it comes to Brexit.

I don't agree with everything he says, but probably the vast majority.

I guess I'm the 'metropolitan London' type that Animal despises

Out of interest, I was in two minds about buying the book. Would you recommend?

Let’s be honest about this, you really should be voting Lib Dem rather than Labour shouldn’t you?

I’m no expert in this stuff but Labour in its core sense wasn’t really set up for the likes of you, middle class, comfortable ( I assume? ) ect, ect?

This isn’t a points scoring excercise by the way on my behalf.

I no longer have a political home, I’ve voted Lib in my younger days, voted twice for Blair who at the time I believed was the best leader since Thatcher and apart from the Iraq nonsense I probably still do.

I voted UKIP in local elections as a protest to Cameron and I’ve voted for the Tory’s in General Elections since 2005, I’m a political “tart”, I’ll show my knickers to any party that presses my buttons.

So I admit, I’m not a solid and reliable vote for any party although I do lean just a tad to centre right but in that regard, New Labour or Conservative have a chance of winning my vote.

The Lib Dems are so dismally lead and have no purpose if they haven’t the balls to stand on a return to the Eu ticket, they’ll get buried in this election, Reform will end up matching them or beating them.

Reform’s leader Tice is a f u c k I n g snake of a man, the sort of personality that makes my flesh crawl, a second hand car salesman, I couldn’t put a vote his way even if he offered me a one night stand with his partner Isabelle Okeshott who I could bone from here to eternity.

Apologies, I digress.

I just find Labour to be a total contradiction of a party.

Their appeal is to the London set mate, I can tell you honestly that I have not spoken to any traditional Labour type voter amongst family, friends or acquaintances that “believes” in Starmer or Labour.

My one half of family are all from Durham mining stock.

My cousin who was a pit worker and who’s own father John ( Jack ) Wright was Mayor of Durham during the 70’s won’t vote Labour anymore, he admits our family elders would disown him if they were alive but he says that Labour are no longer what they’re supposed to be.

I don’t get the appeal of Labour to the metropolitan chattering classes other than they think they’re doing their bit to help the poor little person less fortunate than them.

Like buying the Big Issue and then binning it without reading it, it does the conscience good to hand the money over but the hard luck stories can be done without reading.

It sort of feels like, you, me and millions of others should be in the Lib Dem tent if only they could properly get their act together to bring in the Greens and the centre right New Labour and Cameron Conservative types?

[Omegstrat6]

Don't really know what "working class" is so much now unless it refers to those in non-skilled , non-management positions? Maybe it's also more about attitude than money these days as well?

As I went to uni and spent most of my working life as a retail manager I guess that makes me "middle class" though go back just a couple of generations and it's Black Country chain-makers on one side and Norfolk agricultural labourers on the other.

I guess the old working classes were both poorly educated and spent far too much time working and worrying about feeding and clothing their families or putting a roof over their heads to worry about "bettering" or "educating" themselves. Their communities may have been commendably tight-knit but their world view was very limited. You need time, money and opportunity to escape that.

Even today there is this hangover about the working classes being kind of "salt of the earth" while the Middle classes "don't live in the real world" or are "up themselves". I may not be myself, but my roots are "working class" and I personally wouldn't look down on anyone. IMHO, however, reverse snobbery is every bit as bad as snobbery. There are plenty of ignorant and bigoted working class people just as there are thoughtful and broad minded ones and it's the same with all "classes" in my experience.

As for animal's observation about poorer working class areas bearing the brunt of immigration, I think this has always been the case. From the Asian lascars of the 1700s through the Russian Jews fleeing the Pogroms of the 1880s, the Irish escaping famine, the Europeans escaping Nazism in the 1930s to the Indians, Pakistanis, Chinese and West Indians after WW2 and the later wave of Eastern Europeans who came as EU workers, the majority have all traditionally settled in the poorer areas of either Britain's port cities or industrial towns.

The reason for this was simple-thats where the jobs were plus the combination of lack of money and racism. They could only afford the rent or mortgage in the poorer areas and if they were mostly not welcomed there, they certainly wouldn't have been in better off areas. In the face of this, integration was never going to be easy, hence the establishment of immigrant communities in traditionally white working class areas which tended to keep themselves to themselves.

When times are good, things aren't so bad but every time there is an economic downturn the immigrants will always be blamed for "taking people's jobs" even if they've lived and worked here for years. Racism or narcissism of small differences it never seems to change. (That said, the present levels of immigration are simply not sustainable and I agree that far more needs to be done -and not just about the illegal boat people either).

The class system today is far less defined than it once was and the political parties have changed too and are now far more centrist. Is it really any more surprising then that members of the middle class should vote Labour than it is that members of the working class vote Conservative? All the parties will try and get support from where they can breaking down the red or blue walls.

Thinking about it, Thatcher and Blair were probably the ones who changed things. The green-grocers daughter did a lot of damage to some working class areas but she crushed the (often misused) power of the unions and through Right to Buy and Enterprise Zones she encouraged aspirations and garnered support from those previous paid up members of the working class who benefited. The old "heavy" industries like car manufacturing, ship building, steel and mining were increasingly unproductive and in decline and being replaced by higher tech. industries and, above all, consumerism. The traditional jobs for the working classes were changing and so were the working classes themselves. Blair recognized this and his New Labour reflected the shift. A kind of continuation of Thatcherism but with more of a social conscience (though we're still living with the consequences of some of his policies today). The far left didn't like it then and they don't like it now.

Sorry, waffled on far too long🤐

[WBA123]

Let’s be honest about this, you really should be voting Lib Dem rather than Labour shouldn’t you?

I’m no expert in this stuff but Labour in its core sense wasn’t really set up for the likes of you, middle class, comfortable ( I assume? ) ect, ect?

This isn’t a points scoring excercise by the way on my behalf.

I no longer have a political home, I’ve voted Lib in my younger days, voted twice for Blair who at the time I believed was the best leader since Thatcher and apart from the Iraq nonsense I probably still do.

I voted UKIP in local elections as a protest to Cameron and I’ve voted for the Tory’s in General Elections since 2005, I’m a political “tart”, I’ll show my knickers to any party that presses my buttons.

So I admit, I’m not a solid and reliable vote for any party although I do lean just a tad to centre right but in that regard, New Labour or Conservative have a chance of winning my vote.

The Lib Dems are so dismally lead and have no purpose if they haven’t the balls to stand on a return to the Eu ticket, they’ll get buried in this election, Reform will end up matching them or beating them.

Reform’s leader Tice is a f u c k I n g snake of a man, the sort of personality that makes my flesh crawl, a second hand car salesman, I couldn’t put a vote his way even if he offered me a one night stand with his partner Isabelle Okeshott who I could bone from here to eternity.

Apologies, I digress.

I just find Labour to be a total contradiction of a party.

Their appeal is to the London set mate, I can tell you honestly that I have not spoken to any traditional Labour type voter amongst family, friends or acquaintances that “believes” in Starmer or Labour.

My one half of family are all from Durham mining stock.

My cousin who was a pit worker and who’s own father John ( Jack ) Wright was Mayor of Durham during the 70’s won’t vote Labour anymore, he admits our family elders would disown him if they were alive but he says that Labour are no longer what they’re supposed to be.

I don’t get the appeal of Labour to the metropolitan chattering classes other than they think they’re doing their bit to help the poor little person less fortunate than them.

Like buying the Big Issue and then binning it without reading it, it does the conscience good to hand the money over but the hard luck stories can be done without reading.

It sort of feels like, you, me and millions of others should be in the Lib Dem tent if only they could properly get their act together to bring in the Greens and the centre right New Labour and Cameron Conservative types?

I do vote Lib Dem, but primarily because I'm in an constituency that is between Lib Dem / Tory.

If I lived in a Lab / Tory area I'd vote Labour - as long as the MP wasn't a raving lefty.

I've always said our voting procedure needs reform. Its set up for the two main parties and so people wouldn't vote for a smaller party if they felt their vote was worthless.

I spoke with a Lib Dem councillor just before the local elections and told him similar to what you're saying. Why not try to be a bit more bold, really focus on the EU, find some big personalities who can support you....it seems they are happy to be the outside choice and look for a coalition govt which happens every 40-50 years where they can try and have a bit of a say.

If they were radical they could really take votes off both major parties.

[baggiematt]

Can’t stand James O’Brian. He is no different to Piers Morgan. ‘Debates’ with uneducated, unprepared folk who can’t easily articulate their points. He just makes them look stupid.

It’s a clever way of gaining support for a broad view. Not the kind of intellect I’m a fan of.