Election Year or Fear!

[Geoff Parkstone]

I think if you read what I wrote, I don't express a personal view, I'm trying to generalise the reasons for the right shift with age.

But it's not a question of "excessive riches". If, for example, someone has saved all their life for a good living in retirement, they can reasonably expect to not have to give it away in taxes etc just when they need it. Hence the shift to "self" from "us" in later life.

[ramAnag]

I think if you read what I wrote, I don't express a personal view, I'm trying to generalise the reasons for the right shift with age.

But it's not a question of "excessive riches". If, for example, someone has saved all their life for a good living in retirement, they can reasonably expect to not have to give it away in taxes etc just when they need it. Hence the shift to "self" from "us" in later life.

I frequently read what you write because, ‘economically’ you are one of the most knowledgeable on here, and you’ve regularly opposed the idea of raising taxes to pay for better services.
I’m not suggesting that you, or I, should have to ‘give it away just when they need it’ and I don’t know of anyone else who is either…just that those who can pay more into the ‘pot’ could…for the greater good of that thing Thatcher suggested no longer existed…society.

[Andy_Faber]

I frequently read what you write because, ‘economically’ you are one of the most knowledgeable on here, and you’ve regularly opposed the idea of raising taxes to pay for better services.
I’m not suggesting that you, or I, should have to ‘give it away just when they need it’ and I don’t know of anyone else who is either…just that those who can pay more into the ‘pot’ could…for the greater good of that thing Thatcher suggested no longer existed…society.

I share GP’s reluctance to raise taxes/throw money at ‘it’UNTIL two other things happen - firstly, serious efforts at process improvement (my normally placid manner ALMOST cracked at the lazy inefficiencies I came across relating to a medical appointment I had last week) and secondly efforts relating to my mantra ‘help those who can’t help themselves not those who won’t help themselves (or only help themselves to benefits/riches unfairly). I think you’ll find the latter is pretty much on the MA manifesto.

I agree with GPs comment that opinions are widely drawn rather than personal

[ramAnag]

I share GP’s reluctance to raise taxes/throw money at ‘it’UNTIL two other things happen - firstly, serious efforts at process improvement (my normally placid manner ALMOST cracked at the lazy inefficiencies I came across relating to a medical appointment I had last week) and secondly efforts relating to my mantra ‘help those who can’t help themselves not those who won’t help themselves (or only help themselves to benefits/riches unfairly). I think you’ll find the latter is pretty much on the MA manifesto.

I agree with GPs comment that opinions are widely drawn rather than personal

With respect Andy this is what you do. You personalise situations and then apply the lowest common denominator. You ‘share GP’s reluctance to raise taxes’ because yesterday/last week/six months ago you personally witnessed some inefficiency that annoyed you. You don’t like the idea of migrants from Asia/North Africa because they’re likely to be Muslim and a tiny minority of Muslims are involved in terrorism.
I’m surprised you actually attend football matches because a larger minority of football fans are hooligans and as for those bands you go on about and gigs you attend…they’ve got a fair proportion of smackheads and dope smokers amongst them you know.

We all have our prejudices. It’s easy to condemn Catholics because of the behaviour of a minority of priests…or the police because of half a dozen recent rapists…or even accountants because a minority are crooked, but you can’t set policies according to the lowest common denominators.

At the moment nobody, other than the Greens who aren’t going to get in anyway, will actually be brave enough to support tax rises but I think that’s what has to happen if our schools, surgeries, hospitals, roads and emergency services are going to be funded appropriately and fairly. I don’t want to fund wastefulness any more than you do, but about a month ago I had the privilege of watching one of my grandsons play cricket for a visiting representative U11 side at what is probably Derbyshire’s premier public school. The facilities were amazing…it didn’t make me jealous, it just made me think, shouldn’t we aspire to all kids having such opportunities? Shouldn’t we aspire to all people having access to the same cancer treatment as the King and his daughter in law and if not…why not? I think it’s called levelling up and probably the only way of doing it is by paying for more and better trained teachers, more and better trained nurses and doctors etc with those who can most afford it carrying the biggest financial burden. It might make you and I a little worse off in the short term. Then again we’re all getting older and I quite like the idea of my grandchildren not talking about yet another poor supply teacher, the queue for any medical treatment we may need being shorter and our roads not being pothole riddled death traps. Properly targeted taxes might achieve that.

[Trickytreesreds]

With respect Andy this is what you do. You personalise situations and then apply the lowest common denominator. You ‘share GP’s reluctance to raise taxes’ because yesterday/last week/six months ago you personally witnessed some inefficiency that annoyed you. You don’t like the idea of migrants from Asia/North Africa because they’re likely to be Muslim and a tiny minority of Muslims are involved in terrorism.
I’m surprised you actually attend football matches because a larger minority of football fans are hooligans and as for those bands you go on about and gigs you attend…they’ve got a fair proportion of smackheads and dope smokers amongst them you know.

We all have our prejudices. It’s easy to condemn Catholics because of the behaviour of a minority of priests…or the police because of half a dozen recent rapists…or even accountants because a minority are crooked, but you can’t set policies according to the lowest common denominators.

At the moment nobody, other than the Greens who aren’t going to get in anyway, will actually be brave enough to support tax rises but I think that’s what has to happen if our schools, surgeries, hospitals, roads and emergency services are going to be funded appropriately and fairly. I don’t want to fund wastefulness any more than you do, but about a month ago I had the privilege of watching one of my grandsons play cricket for a visiting representative U11 side at what is probably Derbyshire’s premier public school. The facilities were amazing…it didn’t make me jealous, it just made me think, shouldn’t we aspire to all kids having such opportunities? Shouldn’t we aspire to all people having access to the same cancer treatment as the King and his daughter in law and if not…why not? I think it’s called levelling up and probably the only way of doing it is by paying for more and better trained teachers, more and better trained nurses and doctors etc with those who can most afford it carrying the biggest financial burden. It might make you and I a little worse off in the short term. Then again we’re all getting older and I quite like the idea of my grandchildren not talking about yet another poor supply teacher, the queue for any medical treatment we may need being shorter and our roads not being pothole riddled death traps. Properly targeted taxes might achieve that.

And I would agree with a lot of that. But you have to be careful. Labour /Greens espacially seem to believe the super rich will fund it. The greens manifesto was dependent on the mystical billions they'll raise from this super tax. When asked as to plan B if they bog off out the country, they were flumexed.
No one mentions Reform want everyone under 20k to pay no tax to help get people in work . Once they are, the tax pool will grow over time, but benefits are the better option for the two main paries for years. Now Sunak, wants to target the sick / out work without even a carrot.

Andy is fully right about wastage though. The country is riddled with it. From the government itself, to the state owned services themselves

We spend as much as france on healthcare, but their service is much superior. Throwing money at everything willy nilly is not the answer. Its like throwing money at an alky, he'll just spend it.

Let me give you classic example of time in NHS hospital. After 6 weeks in there, they were finally getting me, to take in tiny food orally.
A doctor came, looked at my charts and wanted a full dietry course of protein shakes , before discharge.
5 days later when the time came, another doctor was so pleased as to the amount of solid food I could stand, he said that the milky drinks were not needed.
A chemist assistant came, just befoe I left with a sack fully of 200 of these drinks.
The sister said, not needed now and the assistant said, well I can't take them back, they've been issued,
At which point the whole bag went in the skip?

I was gob smacked and said to the sister, surely that's not right?
She shrugged her shoulders and replied thats the system for you.

Surreal.

[ramAnag]

And I would agree with a lot of that. But you have to be careful. Labour /Greens espacially seem to believe the super rich will fund it. The greens manifesto was dependent on the mystical billions they'll raise from this super tax. When asked as to plan B if they bog off out the country, they were flumexed.
No one mentions Reform want everyone under 20k to pay no tax to help get people in work . Once they are, the tax pool will grow over time, but benefits are the better option for the two main paries for years. Now Sunak, wants to target the sick / out work without even a carrot.

Andy is fully right about wastage though. The country is riddled with it. From the government itself, to the state owned services themselves

We spend as much as france on healthcare, but their service is much superior. Throwing money at everything willy nilly is not the answer. Its like throwing money at an alky, he'll just spend it.

Let me give you classic example of time in NHS hospital. After 6 weeks in there, they were finally getting me, to take in tiny food orally.
A doctor came, looked at my charts and wanted a full dietry course of protein shakes , before discharge.
5 days later when the time came, another doctor was so pleased as to the amount of solid food I could stand, he said that the milky drinks were not needed.
A chemist assistant came, just befoe I left with a sack fully of 200 of these drinks.
The sister said, not needed now and the assistant said, well I can't take them back, they've been issued,
At which point the whole bag went in the skip?

I was gob smacked and said to the sister, surely that's not right?
She shrugged her shoulders and replied thats the system for you.

Surreal.

Which bit of ‘properly targeted’ - an expression I’ve used throughout - did you miss?
I have never mentioned ‘throwing money at everything willy nilly’ and that has never been my suggestion.

[Trickytreesreds]

Which bit of ‘properly targeted’ - an expression I’ve used throughout - did you miss?
I have never mentioned ‘throwing money at everything willy nilly’ and that has never been my suggestion.

I not really saying you are, but the Greens / Labour seem to be suggesting it.
We can all talk of tax rises, but seeing as we already pay record tax levels now, when you talk about happy to pay more tax, alot of folks twitch.

MORE TAX MAYBE, BUT MASSIVE CUTS ARE ALSO NEEDED, to make the pot of money go around.
We have a lot of departments in this country, who are not productive and wasteful at the same time.

I want tax money spent here on us. Not sent abroad, nor frittered away on incoming immigration.

My sister was emigrating to New Zealand with the family, and it was shocking to realise what YOU WOULD NOT GET for 5 years.
From housing help/ Medical/ Benefits/ absolute zero. you even had to have a pot of money set up, for your flight home, should you loose your job.
Is that applied here? yearh right.

Tax, no problem from me, if it means the belt is tightened and the leaking pipes are fixed that syphon off what we thrown in.

[Andy_Faber]

With respect Andy this is what you do. You personalise situations and then apply the lowest common denominator. You ‘share GP’s reluctance to raise taxes’ because yesterday/last week/six months ago you personally witnessed some inefficiency that annoyed you. You don’t like the idea of migrants from Asia/North Africa because they’re likely to be Muslim and a tiny minority of Muslims are involved in terrorism.
I’m surprised you actually attend football matches because a larger minority of football fans are hooligans and as for those bands you go on about and gigs you attend…they’ve got a fair proportion of smackheads and dope smokers amongst them you know.

We all have our prejudices. It’s easy to condemn Catholics because of the behaviour of a minority of priests…or the police because of half a dozen recent rapists…or even accountants because a minority are crooked, but you can’t set policies according to the lowest common denominators.

I can’t really offer a response to that beyond suggesting that your criticism is a bit of a scattergunning effort.

And please don’t presume about the gigs I attend. Lots of boozing for sure but the type of gigs I’ve been to over the years have been pretty clean of drugs, I’m only commenting on what I’ve seen not what gossip does the rounds. The gigs I go to these days are probably the safest place I go in public. Full of gammons…

[swaledale]

I can’t really offer a response to that beyond suggesting that your criticism is a bit of a scattergunning effort.

And please don’t presume about the gigs I attend. Lots of boozing for sure but the type of gigs I’ve been to over the years have been pretty clean of drugs, I’m only commenting on what I’ve seen not what gossip does the rounds. The gigs I go to these days are probably the safest place I go in public. Full of gammons…

How the **** would you know they were pretty clean of drugs? I mean when even cabinet Ministers are known to enjoy a line of coke I'd say the average person is completely unaware of the level of drug use amongst the "respectable" types

[Andy_Faber]

How the **** would you know they were pretty clean of drugs? I mean when even cabinet Ministers are known to enjoy a line of coke I'd say the average person is completely unaware of the level of drug use amongst the "respectable" types

Sorry you’re not making sense either, I was talking about concert-goers and musicians.